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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #16  
Old 30 Apr 17, 17:43
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The T28/T95 super heavy had plans/considerations for both a 120mm and 155mm guns. not the shorter T7 155mm like on the T30 heavy either, but the full sized long tom.


The M6A2E1 had plans for mounting the T7 155mm as well. Would not surprise me if they did for the 120mm as well considering they ended up sticking both in the T29 turret.


Canada in 1941 had plans for a super heavy tank mounting full sized naval 4 inch guns, a minimum of 5 inches of armour on clean plate surfaces, no traditional weak spots like exposed tracks, and the ability to keep moving if sections were knocked out (segmented design? or multiple engines perhaps) a scale model was built and was very top secret and kept under guard.

The British were interested in it and sent details back to London but after having experts review it they felt they did not have the ability to build such a monster, and if they couldn't they doubt Canada could.


The Ram tank could move at least 28 mph in testing while towing a 17 pdr and still having a turret mounted. (most sources will state 25 mph as a top speed for the tank)


The US 3 inch (M5, M7) was capable of firing at a much greater velocity then the most stated 2,600 fps figure. (some sources will state 2,800) it was capable of taking a much larger propellant charge and firing closer to the velocity of the 17 pdr (3,000 fps) due to the design having a larger safety factor then the 76mm allowing more pressure.
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  #17  
Old 01 May 17, 15:56
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Despite the fact that German tank rounds in the early part of the war could not penetrate the T-34's armor, T-34 crew members by June 1942 began experiencing wounds in the exposed areas of their body (hands and arms, face, and the eyes) inside their turret.

If the German round struck the left side of the tank, the commander-gunner was being injured and uniquely in some cases the eyes. If the enemy round struck the right side, the loader was wounded.

A technical investigation found that when a round hit the turret's outer wall, pieces of the tank's armor flew off the inner wall at a high velocity. The rate and amount of spalling varied according to the kinetic energy of the enemy round.

It was determined that the Soviet's loss of mineral rich areas in the Ukraine and Belorussia resulted in the Soviets losing sufficient quantities of some smelted metals necessary to ensure the toughness of the armor.

This spalling problem was finally ended in early 1943, relieving the tankers of what they called pieces of "steel rain".
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  #18  
Old 02 May 17, 00:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
It does grow into the 17pdr, perhaps when it gets excited?.
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  #19  
Old 02 May 17, 07:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
This spalling problem was finally ended in early 1943, relieving the tankers of what they called pieces of "steel rain".
On all Russian armor? I believe I read that the spalling problem of IS tanks continued to be very serious in the turret until very late in the war.
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  #20  
Old 02 May 17, 14:13
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Originally Posted by FireGodHamster View Post
On all Russian armor? I believe I read that the spalling problem of IS tanks continued to be very serious in the turret until very late in the war.
Don't know. I picked up the T-34 spalling from a tanker's memoirs.
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Old 02 May 17, 14:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireGodHamster View Post
Maybe this could be an entertaining thread.

Tell something intresting about armor that few people might know.

'Armor' meaning the whole topic about AFV's, not the material.
You proposed it, so you go first.
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  #22  
Old 02 May 17, 14:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
Despite the fact that German tank rounds in the early part of the war could not penetrate the T-34's armor, T-34 crew members by June 1942 began experiencing wounds in the exposed areas of their body (hands and arms, face, and the eyes) inside their turret.

If the German round struck the left side of the tank, the commander-gunner was being injured and uniquely in some cases the eyes. If the enemy round struck the right side, the loader was wounded.

A technical investigation found that when a round hit the turret's outer wall, pieces of the tank's armor flew off the inner wall at a high velocity. The rate and amount of spalling varied according to the kinetic energy of the enemy round.

It was determined that the Soviet's loss of mineral rich areas in the Ukraine and Belorussia resulted in the Soviets losing sufficient quantities of some smelted metals necessary to ensure the toughness of the armor.

This spalling problem was finally ended in early 1943, relieving the tankers of what they called pieces of "steel rain".
Spalling was a problem for all forces, not just the Soviets. It is the same principle developed to defeat bunkers by the British using their squash-head rounds. The detonation sent the concrete on the inside flying around like a cuisineart. The real defeat of the spalling problem came with the introduction of shaped charge warheads and penetrator rounds, which caused even worse casualties among the crews.

For the record, the Sherman had a significant spalling problem as well.
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  #23  
Old 02 May 17, 14:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
For the record, the Sherman had a significant spalling problem as well.
Dont recall ever having read about significant spalling issues with Shermans. Do you have a source?
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  #24  
Old 02 May 17, 15:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbo View Post
A couple of things that in my experience results in "aha!" moments for people that are not aware of the different number of bolts on early and late Panther roadwheels..

- The little piece of steel welded to the lower rear side hull of the T-34, intended to knock back the track pins
- The meaning and effect of the raised first and last roadwheels on the Churchill and how it originates back from the first British tanks in WWI
Ditch, trench and obstacle crossing.
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Old 02 May 17, 15:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbo View Post
Dont recall ever having read about significant spalling issues with Shermans. Do you have a source?
Memoirs of Sherman crewmen. It's a standard effect of HE impacting the outer surface of a steel hull - the impact produces spalling on the inner hull. It is not, as inaccurately posted, a phenomena solely of Soviet tanks.

Of course, you first have to find a Sherman survivor, ()since they didn't fare too well when hit, but a little research will turn up what you want.
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  #26  
Old 02 May 17, 15:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbo View Post
Dont recall ever having read about significant spalling issues with Shermans. Do you have a source?
Statements of surviving Sherman crewmen. It's a standard effect of HE impacting the outer surface of a steel hull - the impact produces spalling on the inner hull. It is not, as inaccurately posted, a phenomena solely of Soviet tanks. Sherman tanks were supposed to spall less because they were cast, but if you look at the metallurgy, forged or rolled armor produced better linear alignment and more resistance to spalling...and Sherman hulls, as one can clearly see, presented a lot of relatively flat surface to enemy gunners...the entire side of the hull for starters.




Of course, you first have to find a Sherman survivor, () since they didn't fare too well when hit, but a little research will turn up what you want.

One of the most interesting aspects of this issue is the dichotomy between the armor "experts" and the actual surviving Sherman crew members. I always listen hardest to the guy who was actually there...the crew member. British Sherman crews are especially critical of their Shermans.
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Old 02 May 17, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Spalling was a problem for all forces, not just the Soviets. It is the same principle developed to defeat bunkers by the British using their squash-head rounds. The detonation sent the concrete on the inside flying around like a cuisineart. The real defeat of the spalling problem came with the introduction of shaped charge warheads and penetrator rounds, which caused even worse casualties among the crews.

For the record, the Sherman had a significant spalling problem as well.
My Russian source wrote, "I will openly admit that when our 233d Tank Brigade of 5th Mech Corps first received Sherman tanks in the last months of 1943, we combat veterans, in studying their tactical-technical characteristics, recalled the possibility of armor spalling in the fighting compartment if enemy armor-piercing rounds were to strike.

Our concerns were put to rest in the January battles on the flat fields of right-bank Ukraine, however, The Shermans took more than a few direct hits on the turret and did nto manifest the infirmity that had plagued the early T-34s. Enemy rounds failed to penetrate their armor, and not one bit of spray erupted inside the fighting compartments. Instead, at the places where the enemy antitank solid -shot rounds had struck the exterior surfaces of the tanks, there were marks--spots of various diameter and depths, which were frequently accompanied by hanging "icicles" of melted turret steel. An unquestionable sign of the high tensile strength of the armor, these marks were dubbed "Hitler's kisses" by our tanker comedians."

The author, Dmitriy Loza was a tank battalion commander of A Red Army unit equipped with Shermans and during the course of the war he had three Shermans shot out from under him. I think we have a Sherman tank survivor.
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Old 02 May 17, 16:22
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I should add Loza's memoirs are available in english:

"Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks: The World War II memoirs of Hero of the Soviet Union Dmitriy Loza"

and

"Fighting For the Soviet Motherland: Recollections from the Eastern Front". The three-page plus discussion on spalling is in this volume.
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Old 02 May 17, 16:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechashef View Post
Australia built this tank and the reason why is rather interesting:



It is a testbed Sentinel or arguably a Thunderbolt.
Any idea what the loading arrangements were to be? Two loaders, perhaps?
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Old 02 May 17, 17:35
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Any idea what the loading arrangements were to be? Two loaders, perhaps?
It was simply a testbed to see if the turret could cope with the 17pdr, since two 25pdrs gave more recoil than the former weapon. It was not intended to be an actual battle tank.

The sentinel may have been a missed hit, essentially an ugly Sherman with superior armament. AC3's with 25pdrs (superior to the M3 75mm), supported by AC4's with the 17pdr (essentially a Firefly), could theoretically have been fielded earlier than the usual Sherman CW squadrons.
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