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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

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  #46  
Old 14 Jul 17, 02:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
Yep; compare a Tiger with an Apache E, compare the Luftwaffe Typhoons with the RAF ones. Compare the systems / weapons cleared on both. No equivalent in AEW&C, refueling, ISR or UAS. Look at the actual models of Puma vs Ajax, the Bundeswehr Leopards vs. the Challenger 2s and the same 'can't be arsed' attitude seeps through most German military programmes. The Luftwaffe is sick to the back teeth of Airbus, but for political reasons they have to accept their under-performing, over-priced aircraft.

But, of course, the systems are useless unless the work and are manned. German readiness in most equipment areas? 50% on a good day. Investment in training? a fraction of the UK's. Experience in recent - very complex operations - pretty poor.

If you want a rough rule of thumb, divide German military expenditure by personnel or major systems and you will see where the issues lie.
The Leopards have the better main gun. Otherwise the big difference is nationalism.
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  #47  
Old 14 Jul 17, 05:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Some seem to be dwelling on wishful thinking.

UK/Germany, Germany has more tanks, no towed arty, more fighters and attack aircraft, more rotatory wing than the UK. The navy is the only place that the UK as more ships. When it comes to quality it seems they are of the same quality.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/count...try_id=germany
Have you looked at active units?

As far as I can tell the UK has more operational tank battalions than Germany.
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  #48  
Old 14 Jul 17, 05:29
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Quote:
The Leopards have the better main gun. Otherwise the big difference is nationalism.
Nope, different specifications but neither better nor worse. The 120 mm smooth-bore has become more of a European standard, but the rifled holds a longer-range capability. Horses / courses, as it were.

You seem to be moving the goals, as well as ignoring the aspects of investment, and training. I am particularly intrigued by the reference to 'Nationalism'; what on earth does that mean?

I just gave you a series of points where - for example - the RAF completely over-matches the Luftwaffe in capability; in the absence of fact are you accusing me individually or the respective country investment / planning as 'Nationalistic'?

Despite the larger Germany economy it invests far less in defence, has worse equipment capability where the same platforms are involved and has less operational experience. Please - again - explain to me how it is in any way 'equivalent' to the UK or France?
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Last edited by Bluenose; 14 Jul 17 at 07:19..
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  #49  
Old 14 Jul 17, 11:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Have you looked at active units?

As far as I can tell the UK has more operational tank battalions than Germany.
The UK is down to three armour battalions--Kings Royal Hussars, Queens Royal Hussars and the Royal Tank Regiment.
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  #50  
Old 14 Jul 17, 12:27
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Quote:
The UK is down to three armour battalions--Kings Royal Hussars, Queens Royal Hussars and the Royal Tank Regiment.
The armoured forces add up to about the same in terms of strength, though arguably the UK has more and more modern IFV / APC and will retain this as Ajax comes into service (Puma looks a bit stalled for now). The Chally 2 is in desperate need of an upgrade along the lines of the WLEP, but looks like money will not forth-coming; the Leo has the edge, there.

Still leaves the German forces c. €4-5b down on UK and France in 2016; whether they will actually make this good by 2020 (as, to be fair, they have discussed) remains to be seen. In the meantime, readiness, training expenditure and access to high-end kit remains lower.

It is mildly amusing to see the announcement of a Franco-German 5th gen fighter plan. Given that Germany almost sunk EF through refusing to cough up for the more advanced bits and the French managed to **** everyone off the original European fighter scheme until it separated into rival programmes, (and look like are doing it again with nEUROn) the prospect of success seems marginal at best. Maybe getting the Eurofighters working first might be a better use of cash?
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  #51  
Old 14 Jul 17, 12:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Have you looked at active units?

As far as I can tell the UK has more operational tank battalions than Germany.

with half the tanks????

http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp
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  #52  
Old 14 Jul 17, 12:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Even those numbers are suspect. I think a lot of those tanks are parked in a field somewhere and considered "war replacements". It shows Canada with 80 tanks but I think they just have 2 active 14-15 tank companies. It shows the Uk with 250 but they only have 3 battalions of 54 tanks each.
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  #53  
Old 14 Jul 17, 12:42
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Perhaps the difference is in training units or Reserves?

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  #54  
Old 14 Jul 17, 13:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
Even those numbers are suspect. I think a lot of those tanks are parked in a field somewhere and considered "war replacements". It shows Canada with 80 tanks but I think they just have 2 active 14-15 tank companies. It shows the Uk with 250 but they only have 3 battalions of 54 tanks each.
The BW that I'm familiar with parks on hard stands with roofs over them.

The Reserves are mostly good ole boys clubs that do minor training and rifle competitions. Did some of that with the local unit a couple of times.
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  #55  
Old 14 Jul 17, 13:24
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I know that the UK's armour reserve units (Yeomanry) aren't issued tanks but are considered to be individual combat replacements for active units.
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  #56  
Old 15 Jul 17, 10:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
I know that the UK's armour reserve units (Yeomanry) aren't issued tanks but are considered to be individual combat replacements for active units.
I had no idea that the UK, Canada, Germany, etc. were down to just a handful of tanks each. Its depressing and alarming. I was just at FT Hood Texas and it sounds like the US has more tanks there than NATO does in Europe.
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  #57  
Old 15 Jul 17, 14:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javaman View Post
I had no idea that the UK, Canada, Germany, etc. were down to just a handful of tanks each. Its depressing and alarming. I was just at FT Hood Texas and it sounds like the US has more tanks there than NATO does in Europe.
The three country's come up with about 800 Tanks combined. Canada 80, UK 230 and Germany 500.
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  #58  
Old 15 Jul 17, 15:39
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Canada, Germany and the UK may have 800 plus tanks (or may not) but they only have six Tank Battalions and two Tank Companies in their armed forces. They need more battalion sized units. A Reserve force would be helpful, but it seems the countries have deleted these on purpose.

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  #59  
Old 15 Jul 17, 17:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
The three country's come up with about 800 Tanks combined. Canada 80, UK 230 and Germany 500.
The Brits are largely pulling out of Germany, back to bases in the UK. I guess the big tank battle on the Rhine Plain is not seen as a significant threat anymore. British armour is scoped for medium scale expeditionary action, ideally not lasting very long.
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  #60  
Old 15 Jul 17, 19:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javaman View Post
Ok, so Canada officially didn't support it, but did actually support it.

"Clandestine deployment of Canadian forces[edit]

According to the U.S. State Department, a total of 15 countries participated covertly.[116] According to classified U.S. documents released by Wikileaks, despite the Canadian government's official position that they would not participate in the invasion, Canadian officials allegedly promised to clandestinely support it.[117] In addition to naval vessels and personnel already in the region,[117] Canadian officers served in senior command positions[118] and Canadian pilots flew Boeing C-17s into Iraq to "season" the flight crews.[119] In 2003, Prime Minister Chrétien admitted that some Canadian troops could be serving alongside American and British troops in Iraq. "It's possible," he said, "but they are not in combat roles." Canadian Defense Minister John McCallum refused to give Parliament details about the locations of Canadian soldiers in Iraq."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-...%E2%80%93_Iraq
It's a good point you make there, what you say is true, and noteworthy.
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