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Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

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  #31  
Old 06 Jul 17, 21:02
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
thanks for reply
it was my understanding, US BVR attacks were significantly hampered [ if not forbidden ] in PG1 and many other conflicts ..they needed visual confirmation
...I know the Phoenix missile had no kills in US operational shoots
..supposedly the Iranians got a bunch of Phoenix kills, but I don't know what ranges those were
...anyone know of any stats on BVR/very long range operational kills?
...and/or is BVR combat ''common'', if at all?

here in ACG thread on the Phoenix, post # 16 has some stats
for some reason I can't pull that site up from here!?
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...missile&page=2

During the Gulf War the ROE required two different validations of an air-to-air target as hostile prior to launch. The F-15 was the only fighter that had two on-board sources to validate their targets.

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F-15Cs scored 32 aerial kills of a total of 41 victories in the war. Of these, all but eight were achieved with the Eagle’s beyond-visual-range weapon, the radar-guided AIM-7 Sparrow air-to-air missile, a weapon that had been plagued by mechanical problems during the Vietnam war but performed well in the 1990s.
LINK
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  #32  
Old 07 Jul 17, 00:39
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The Iranians were pretty sure they were shooting into a target rich environment. So what if the Phoenix hit the wrong aircraft? Inshallah (God wills it). Over Iraq in PG 1, most of the aircraft flying were coalition. If any Iraqi aircraft went up,
they were immediately ganged up on and there was a chance of friendly fire casualties.

The Phoenix was not a bad antiaircraft missile. The problem was it was designed to intercept Soviet Bombers (large and relatively slow) trying to close on Carrier Task Forces to launch ship killing missiles. The missile was huge because it was designed before the parts could be miniaturized. The parent aircraft had to guide it to the target until the onboard radar could lock on. Once you get within eyeball range the other guys can launch a missile at you. The AMRAAM worked better.

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  #33  
Old 07 Jul 17, 12:37
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During the Gulf War the ROE required two different validations of an air-to-air target as hostile prior to launch. The F-15 was the only fighter that had two on-board sources to validate their targets.
Was there not a key AWACS input, particularly NCTR, that allowed the pilots better target discrimination and use of the Sparrows?
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  #34  
Old 07 Jul 17, 13:18
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Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
Was there not a key AWACS input, particularly NCTR, that allowed the pilots better target discrimination and use of the Sparrows?
F-15C has NCTR on-board. AWACS could also have been one of the two sources of hostile confirmation needed, but the F-15C had "other" systems on-board.
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  #35  
Old 07 Jul 17, 13:40
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F-15C has NCTR on-board. AWACS could also have been one of the two sources of hostile confirmation needed, but the F-15C had "other" systems on-board.
Ah, righty-ho. I shall, as ever, bow to your knowledge on this
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  #36  
Old 07 Jul 17, 15:44
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Sparrows need guidance to the target. The host aircraft has to be kept within a narrow cone of radar emissions to guide true. Any break on this cone will cause the missile to go stupid. Since one has to guide it to impact, the firing aircraft will be well within sight of the enemy.

AMRAAM was an improvement over the Sparrow. The use of smaller circuitry allowed the old missile body to be used.

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  #37  
Old 07 Jul 17, 22:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Sparrows need guidance to the target. The host aircraft has to be kept within a narrow cone of radar emissions to guide true. Any break on this cone will cause the missile to go stupid. Since one has to guide it to impact, the firing aircraft will be well within sight of the enemy.

AMRAAM was an improvement over the Sparrow. The use of smaller circuitry allowed the old missile body to be used.

Pruitt
Sorry not quite correct.

F-Pole is the slant range between the launch aircraft and target, at the time of missile intercep.

Basically, the faster and higher you are at the moment of missile launch, the faster your missile will go so the F-pole will vary greatly based on launch and target aircraft altitudes and speeds. So it the launch aircraft is high, at very high speed, and hence you have a greater missile range than the enemy and your F-pole will be greater.

Now if the launch aircraft and the target aircraft are both at 28,000 ft. and both aircraft are at Mach 0.85 with a missile launch at 20nm the F-pole for and AIM-7F would be approximately 10nm. That is well outside of visual range.

In addition, the launch aircraft does not have to continue to fly towards the target aircraft after launch. Yes for the AIM-7F the F-15 had to keep the target illuminated, HOWEVER, that narrow beam you mentioned can be positioned anywhere in about the 45 degree by 45 degree cone off the nose of the aircraft. This allows the launch aircraft to turn away from the target aircraft after launch, thereby increasing the F-pole distance. Also, don’t confuse the need to illuminate the target for a semi-active missile, vice the missile having to be in the radar beam to impact as with a “beam riding” missile.

In addition, the AIM-120 does not use the same “missile body” as the AIM-7. In fact although the AIM-120 is the same length at the AIM-7, the AIM-120 has a smaller diameter and is approximately 30% lighter than the AIM-7.
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  #38  
Old 08 Jul 17, 01:58
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What's wrong with the facility in Texas?
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  #39  
Old 08 Jul 17, 03:47
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They probably feel it can be made in India and they will still get profits. Levi Strauss once made its Blue Jeans in the US, now they are made by cheap labor overseas.

Dallas/Fort Worth is some of the most expensive real estate in Texas. The wages will only keep going up as the workers try to keep up with the cost of living.

Boeing came to Lake Charles promising to train and use local labor. When they got started it was found that there were no locals that had the best paying job skills so they transferred people in from Kansas. Boeing also left town when their contract was up and we got Grumman to come in. At least the Lake Charles area had some skilled labor then.

Never trust companies that can build their product outside the country.

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  #40  
Old 08 Jul 17, 08:34
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
They probably feel it can be made in India and they will still get profits. Levi Strauss once made it Blue Jeans in the US, now they are made by cheap labor overseas.

Dallas/Fort Worth is some of the most expensive real estate in Texas. The wages will only keep going up as the workers try to keep up with the cost of living.

Boeing came to Lake Charles promising to train and use local labor. When they got started it was found that there were no locals that had the best paying job skills so they transferred people in from Kansas. Boeing also left town when their contract was up and we got Grumman to come in. At least the Lake Charles area had some skilled labor then.

Never trust companies that can build their product outside the country.

Pruitt
amen...McDonnell Douglas had labor problems and then sold out to Boeing
it was my understanding during the labor dispute, that McD brought in some scabs...my understanding was the scabs weren't paid well and/or not that educated
big problem with that is you don't want shi&heads assembling high tech, fast movers/jets
..
but the guys with the money have the power
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  #41  
Old 08 Jul 17, 18:15
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
They probably feel it can be made in India and they will still get profits. Levi Strauss once made its Blue Jeans in the US, now they are made by cheap labor overseas.

Dallas/Fort Worth is some of the most expensive real estate in Texas. The wages will only keep going up as the workers try to keep up with the cost of living.

Boeing came to Lake Charles promising to train and use local labor. When they got started it was found that there were no locals that had the best paying job skills so they transferred people in from Kansas. Boeing also left town when their contract was up and we got Grumman to come in. At least the Lake Charles area had some skilled labor then.

Never trust companies that can build their product outside the country.

Pruitt
Isn't Mr Trump's mission to stop that sort of thing ?
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  #42  
Old 08 Jul 17, 20:27
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Isn't Mr Trump's mission to stop that sort of thing ?
Never trust a Politician's promises. Go by how they actually do things.

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  #43  
Old 10 Jul 17, 08:05
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They probably feel it can be made in India and they will still get profits. Levi Strauss once made its Blue Jeans in the US, now they are made by cheap labor overseas.
It is begin offered as a package for India; LM will regain a minority of the revenue or input. The SC facility for remaining F-16s allows F-35 focus for the main operation.
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  #44  
Old 15 Sep 17, 02:39
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Is this being done so Ft Worth can start turning out the F-35?
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Old 15 Sep 17, 03:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
They probably feel it can be made in India and they will still get profits. Levi Strauss once made its Blue Jeans in the US, now they are made by cheap labor overseas.

Dallas/Fort Worth is some of the most expensive real estate in Texas. The wages will only keep going up as the workers try to keep up with the cost of living.

Boeing came to Lake Charles promising to train and use local labor. When they got started it was found that there were no locals that had the best paying job skills so they transferred people in from Kansas. Boeing also left town when their contract was up and we got Grumman to come in. At least the Lake Charles area had some skilled labor then.

Never trust companies that can build their product outside the country.

Pruitt
Never trust companies that can build their product outside the country.

Are there any???
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