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Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

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  #16  
Old 03 Jul 17, 11:58
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the Israelis also dominated in the Syrian air battles with F16s being used

Quote:
Of those 88 kills, 44 belonged to F-15 Eagles and 33 belonged to F-16s
http://www.tailsthroughtime.com/2015...r-battles.html

it is a very capable weapon--just like a lot of weapons---if used correctly and by trained, dedicated pilots

Last edited by Moulin; 03 Jul 17 at 12:04..
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  #17  
Old 03 Jul 17, 12:22
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The early 1980s F-16 were WVR fighters / multi-role only; nothing like the kit they had from the Block 30s onward. The F-15s were envisaged as a BVR interceptor / air-superiority aircraft and I believe had AIM-7 capability from their initial delivery to the IDF. Thus, as much as range, they have the performance and weapons package to protect the F-16s against threats at BVR range.

The F-15s have a good fuel fraction and of course are benefiting from not carrying 2 x 2,000lb bombs, which does terrible things to fuel consumption

F-16s always had manually bombing computer and a HUD setting, was part of their original fit. Good aircraft then and still a very good aircraft.
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  #18  
Old 03 Jul 17, 12:55
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The F-16 had a CCIP-mode pretty much from the beginning (production wise), 'cause it makes life soooo much easier for a fighter-bomber pilot.
CCIP being the Continuously Computed Impact Point, in which the pilot in his head up display will continuously see where his bombs will land when released at that moment in time. He can fly said impact point towards the target and release manually when the pipper (would that be the pipper? too long ago I've read about it, sorry)) is superimposed over the target.

There's also CCRP, Continuously Computed Release Point, where the target is designated well in advance and coupled to the bombing computer to have the computer drop the bomb at the precise moment.

If you've read the book about it, it might include some info on that as well.
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Old 03 Jul 17, 14:14
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...thanks all replies
...I got to ''understand CCIP and CCRP from ''flying'' the SU27 Flanker flight sim....I also had one of the Falcon sims...but I remember those systems mainly from SU27
..the old games were very detailed with big manuals..
...I was going to mention that it might seem ''easy'' to put bombs on target using those systems...they seem so simple--just keep the ''dot'' on target....but it's only as good as the pilots and training/culture/etc
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Old 04 Jul 17, 04:47
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In Vietnam, depending upon whom you read, a good pilot could roughly match the early LGBs. But that is a 'good' pilot. The IDF understandable selected their best for Opera and the results speak for themselves.

I suspect that the IDF used the CCIP mode.
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Old 05 Jul 17, 07:35
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seems like the IDF had great success with the F16
using less gas for training and operations--saving money/etc
less maintenance/turn around time/etc
...what about European use? is it's range adequate?
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  #22  
Old 05 Jul 17, 07:45
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Quote:
seems like the IDF had great success with the F16
using less gas for training and operations--saving money/etc
less maintenance/turn around time/etc
They do seem to like it.

Quote:
...what about European use? is it's range adequate?
How long is a piece of string?It is a light, tactical fighter now used as a strike aircraft. With aerial refueling it has good persistence, but so do most things. With tanks it has decent range, but that depends upon load and mission profile.

One things that the IDF does enjoy is limited requirement for strategic mobility, so most of its operations tend not to be too distant from home.
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  #23  
Old 05 Jul 17, 08:52
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Quote:
...what about European use ?
They served us perfectly well in a multitude of sometimes even surprising roles..

Quote:
“With the added recce features, we employ a fully integrated low-drag, all-in-one sensor. Our pilots can execute any recce tasking and be immediately re-tasked if needed to support troops on the ground with effective and accurate firepower. There is no doubt that Sniper brings us the best of both recce and precision targeting capabilities in one.”
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/new...sr-sniper.html

In fact it's hard apparently to find a single new type replacement with similar cost effectiveness and versatility.
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  #24  
Old 05 Jul 17, 09:17
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In fact it's hard apparently to find a single new type replacement with similar cost effectiveness and versatility.
F-35?

If anything is an improvement on the F-16 it would be the Gripen, but it is not sufficiently superior to warrant its acquisition if you already have the Viper.

On a related note, if you had wanted to keep the F-16 really relevant you could have considered the Mitsubishi F-2 path, the only example of GD's projected Agile Falcon that was to offset inevitable weight growth while offering further room for modifications
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  #25  
Old 05 Jul 17, 14:33
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In fact it's hard apparently to find a single new type replacement with similar cost effectiveness and versatility.
Desert Falcon as used by United Arab Emirates.

Well yeah, Gripen NG. I suspect it to be a bit cheaper per flight hour than the Desert Falcon and most certainly than the F-35. Definitely more advanced than the Desert Falcon by basic design too.

What's your local enemy flying and what does his air defence look like?
Stealth can turn out to be very convenient. When the war ends, the stealthy one may turn out to be the most cost effective aircraft.

But hey, I can't get enough of the F-16.....
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  #26  
Old 06 Jul 17, 04:46
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Desert Falcon as used by United Arab Emirates.
Same airframe, new systems. Proposed Block 70 for USAF should offer improved capability, but at with opportunity cost of sustaining a relatively aged design.

Quote:
Well yeah, Gripen NG. I suspect it to be a bit cheaper per flight hour than the Desert Falcon and most certainly than the F-35. Definitely more advanced than the Desert Falcon by basic design too.
From personal experience, CPFH calculations are witchcraft, but the Swedes added low sustainment cost to the basic formula and I have never seen anything that suggests the Gripen is costlier to use than any equivalent. They have small, very independent fleets and this isolation from economies of scale and wider supply chains has mandated that their kit is economical (though the E has about 50% non-Swedish elements).

Quote:
What's your local enemy flying and what does his air defence look like?
Stealth can turn out to be very convenient. When the war ends, the stealthy one may turn out to be the most cost effective aircraft.
The current trap of most Western air-forces, I would term it the 'opportunity cost of over-match': you cannot generate high-end capability over-night, yet you rarely need it and thus it is a costly investment that sucks money from equipment in daily use. An F-16 is good for 80% of missions, but the day you need an F-35 the Viper may suddenly show its age.

Here endeth the sermon, but this is the sort of things that causes supreme headaches for planners
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  #27  
Old 06 Jul 17, 07:44
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Not sure.



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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
thanks for replies
very true--but escorts need more range, correct? especially if intercept is needed? ..where as the attack planes should get in get out, with the escorts intercepting any fighters trying to engage the bombers?

did the F16s have bomb aiming systems in the original design? or was that added?..from quick research, it seems like it was designed for multi-role
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  #28  
Old 06 Jul 17, 07:59
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It was designed as a light fighter and slowly qualified on a wider range of weapons. That picture is either late in the cycle or a hope for the future (realized subsequently)
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Old 06 Jul 17, 13:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
The early 1980s F-16 were WVR fighters / multi-role only; nothing like the kit they had from the Block 30s onward. The F-15s were envisaged as a BVR interceptor / air-superiority aircraft and I believe had AIM-7 capability from their initial delivery to the IDF. Thus, as much as range, they have the performance and weapons package to protect the F-16s against threats at BVR range.

The F-15s have a good fuel fraction and of course are benefiting from not carrying 2 x 2,000lb bombs, which does terrible things to fuel consumption

F-16s always had manually bombing computer and a HUD setting, was part of their original fit. Good aircraft then and still a very good aircraft.
thanks for reply
it was my understanding, US BVR attacks were significantly hampered [ if not forbidden ] in PG1 and many other conflicts ..they needed visual confirmation
...I know the Phoenix missile had no kills in US operational shoots
..supposedly the Iranians got a bunch of Phoenix kills, but I don't know what ranges those were
...anyone know of any stats on BVR/very long range operational kills?
...and/or is BVR combat ''common'', if at all?

here in ACG thread on the Phoenix, post # 16 has some stats
for some reason I can't pull that site up from here!?
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...missile&page=2
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Old 06 Jul 17, 13:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post

[SNIP]

The current trap of most Western air-forces, I would term it the 'opportunity cost of over-match': you cannot generate high-end capability over-night, yet you rarely need it and thus it is a costly investment that sucks money from equipment in daily use. An F-16 is good for 80% of missions, but the day you need an F-35 the Viper may suddenly show its age.

Here endeth the sermon, but this is the sort of things that causes supreme headaches for planners
The idea is to move from air superiority to air dominance. Perhaps superiority v dominate is a semantic point, but there it is.
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