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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Vietnam War

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Vietnam War The Battle for Vietnam. .

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  #46  
Old 07 May 17, 08:59
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Originally Posted by KRJ View Post
I have no opinion on Robert Kennedy specifically, just a general low opinion of all things Kennedy.
I would concur with that. Especially from Ted Kennedy onward, almost none of whom have ever done anything more than be professional Kennedys. I will admit that my distaste for them taints my opinion of the two brothers to some extent.

JFK and RFK at least accomplished a few things...though I think they are both highly over rated because of the martyr status that has been hoisted upon them by pop culture. The latter generations have been living off of the martyrdom of their two ancestors.
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  #47  
Old 07 May 17, 09:24
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phil74501

We are in agreement with your assertion that the US government was already at war with the Vietnamese Revolution under the Eisenhower and Dulles Brothers Administration before JFK. They initially declared it a civil war among Vietnamese which was correct reading of the matter.

However, you are making the wrong implication in regards to making the present of an advisory military force in Vietnam into the automatic assumption that it is to be followed by conventional military ground forces of US troops. This WAS NOT the official US policy in that phrase of the historical timeline. The plan was to train and arm the local Vietnamese to do their own fighting against their own fellow Vietnamese of the other side of the internal civil war to support the Diem regime.

In my opinion the historical record is already proven the JFK was leading the US out of Vietnam. He was NOT taking the further escalation and major advancement of transforming the civil war into a major war of conventional US armed forced invasion and occupation of a foreign country. I would recommend this: JFK AND VIETNAM by JOHN M. NEWMAN.

On the issue of your concern over former members of JFK cabinet and others not making a issue over the Coup of 1963 is a good question in need of an answer and the answer is available. One of the first things LBJ did was declare they were requested to remain at their post within his government but that they must obey his commands without disloyal behavior to LBJ (his tone was strong and threatening). Some supported a ground invasion of Vietnam by ground troops and looked forward to it. Some were in the middle in hopes the JFK policy of advisors only be allowed to work. McNamara only wanted to be continued as a trained paid loyal dog and under a strong Master and have a place in history. His later guilt would consume him cause his resignation and book publishing to help him with his guilt. Mostly these democrats were not in the loop of the Coup of 1963 and did not have a clue as to what went down at that time frame.
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  #48  
Old 07 May 17, 09:38
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phil74501

Oh! I forgot to mention we already have agitators trying to stop the thread; that we still are within Bobby Kennedy thread. As little Bobby Kennedy is sitting there before the threatening and demanding LBJ. Note LBJ did immediately address the entire Kennedy family and especially Bobby with a projected (BUT LYING) intense emotional expressions of sympathy and remorse at the murder of JFK. Needless to said, the relationship between LBJ and Bobby Kennedy, as well as other Kennedy members, was deeply strained and cold; with high levels of suspicion and distrust barely under the surface.
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  #49  
Old 07 May 17, 09:51
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phil74501

I can even agree with your above post that the Kennedys "martyr" men were indeed lacking in the number of accomplishments they should have had, being with the modern high level of admiration, which some could see as being overrated in hindsight. However, should you not take into consideration that getting their selves shot in the head early in their political career (because a criminal element wants to terminate their career before its full fulfillment of high goals) does tend to give the false implication that they were lacking in accomplishments and overrated?????????
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  #50  
Old 09 May 17, 09:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil74501 View Post
I would concur with that. Especially from Ted Kennedy onward, almost none of whom have ever done anything more than be professional Kennedys. I will admit that my distaste for them taints my opinion of the two brothers to some extent.

JFK and RFK at least accomplished a few things...though I think they are both highly over rated because of the martyr status that has been hoisted upon them by pop culture. The latter generations have been living off of the martyrdom of their two ancestors.
This is exactly true.

The legends of JFK and Robert have grown all out of proportion to the actual accomplishments of the pair.

One hard-bought lesson from the 60s is that you cannot simply dismiss crazy people.

I wonder what Sirhan Sirhan thinks of all this conspiracy stuff, sitting in his cell knowing the truth.
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  #51  
Old 09 May 17, 14:18
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Kennedy escalation?

Who really knows what Kennedy would have done differently than LBJ in Vietnam? The "Best and the Brightest" (to quote David Halberstam) that Kennedy brought into the administration were largely retained by LBJ. Kennedy did not have a Tonkin Gulf incident. Would he have reacted differently, given the same circumstance? Would the same advisors have said anything different to Kennedy?
The most we have is that the killing of the Diems soured him on the war, but he only lived a few weeks longer. Who knows what would have happened later. I doubt the sex scandals would have amounted to anything. Reporters were still keeping the President's private life private in those days. It wasn't until the Gary Hart situation did private lives of Presidential candidates matter. The 1992 election saw the full-fledged coverage of Clinton's sexual adventures, but he was elected anyway, albeit with a little help from Ross Perot.
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  #52  
Old 09 May 17, 17:52
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Originally Posted by Bo Archer View Post
phil74501

We are in agreement with your assertion that the US government was already at war with the Vietnamese Revolution under the Eisenhower and Dulles Brothers Administration before JFK. They initially declared it a civil war among Vietnamese which was correct reading of the matter.

However, you are making the wrong implication in regards to making the present of an advisory military force in Vietnam into the automatic assumption that it is to be followed by conventional military ground forces of US troops. This WAS NOT the official US policy in that phrase of the historical timeline. The plan was to train and arm the local Vietnamese to do their own fighting against their own fellow Vietnamese of the other side of the internal civil war to support the Diem regime.

In my opinion the historical record is already proven the JFK was leading the US out of Vietnam. He was NOT taking the further escalation and major advancement of transforming the civil war into a major war of conventional US armed forced invasion and occupation of a foreign country. I would recommend this: JFK AND VIETNAM by JOHN M. NEWMAN.

On the issue of your concern over former members of JFK cabinet and others not making a issue over the Coup of 1963 is a good question in need of an answer and the answer is available. One of the first things LBJ did was declare they were requested to remain at their post within his government but that they must obey his commands without disloyal behavior to LBJ (his tone was strong and threatening). Some supported a ground invasion of Vietnam by ground troops and looked forward to it. Some were in the middle in hopes the JFK policy of advisors only be allowed to work. McNamara only wanted to be continued as a trained paid loyal dog and under a strong Master and have a place in history. His later guilt would consume him cause his resignation and book publishing to help him with his guilt. Mostly these democrats were not in the loop of the Coup of 1963 and did not have a clue as to what went down at that time frame.
Firstly let me say that I hate discussing conspiracy theories with conspiracy theorists simply because it feels like doing this And I'm sure they will fell the same way replying to me, or anyone else that doesn't buy into their conspiracy theory.

Having said that, your claim that the members or JFK's administration would just blindly follow LBJ's commands or else, is frankly, preposterous. LBJ was, by all accounts, and deservedly so, highly detested by most members of JFK's administration...especially the higher ranking members, and especially by RFK. They stayed on only for the good of the country, not LBJ. Some were not just members of JFK's administration, they were friends of his, or friends of RFKs, and in RFK's case, his brother. Saying that, if any of them thought JFK had been killed by some coup, especially if LBJ was in it, that they would've kept quiet about it, is totally unbelievable. Almost every high ranking member of his administration both outlive LBJ's administration, and LBJ himself. Some outliving both of the aforementioned by decades. Yet not one of them ever said a thing about any kind of plot, or coup, or "deep state." Not even Ted Kennedy, who outlived LBJ's administration by 40 years, who, as a US Senator, had considerable power and access to any document he wanted, ever said a thing about his brother being killed by some "deep state" coup.

I'm sorry but your assertion just does not make sense. Why would McNamara cover up for LBJ? Why would RFK cover up anything for LBJ? Why would anybody cover up a murder committed by someone they detested?

As for what would've happened in Viet Nam had JFK not been killed, we'll never truly know. I would go with what McNamara...one of JFK's closest advisors said. He would know better than anybody else, outside of maybe RFK, just exactly what JFK's plans were for Viet Nam. I know all the conspiracy theorists want to tell us that, if JFK had not been killed, we would've had peace in our time, the hungry would've been fed, we would have streets paved with gold, the planet would now be a utopian paradise.
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  #53  
Old 09 May 17, 18:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil74501 View Post
Firstly let me say that I hate discussing conspiracy theories with conspiracy theorists simply because it feels like doing this And I'm sure they will fell the same way replying to me, or anyone else that doesn't buy into their conspiracy theory.

Having said that, your claim that the members or JFK's administration would just blindly follow LBJ's commands or else, is frankly, preposterous. LBJ was, by all accounts, and deservedly so, highly detested by most members of JFK's administration...especially the higher ranking members, and especially by RFK. They stayed on only for the good of the country, not LBJ. Some were not just members of JFK's administration, they were friends of his, or friends of RFKs, and in RFK's case, his brother. Saying that, if any of them thought JFK had been killed by some coup, especially if LBJ was in it, that they would've kept quiet about it, is totally unbelievable. Almost every high ranking member of his administration both outlive LBJ's administration, and LBJ himself. Some outliving both of the aforementioned by decades. Yet not one of them ever said a thing about any kind of plot, or coup, or "deep state." Not even Ted Kennedy, who outlived LBJ's administration by 40 years, who, as a US Senator, had considerable power and access to any document he wanted, ever said a thing about his brother being killed by some "deep state" coup.

I'm sorry but your assertion just does not make sense. Why would McNamara cover up for LBJ? Why would RFK cover up anything for LBJ? Why would anybody cover up a murder committed by someone they detested?

As for what would've happened in Viet Nam had JFK not been killed, we'll never truly know. I would go with what McNamara...one of JFK's closest advisors said. He would know better than anybody else, outside of maybe RFK, just exactly what JFK's plans were for Viet Nam. I know all the conspiracy theorists want to tell us that, if JFK had not been killed, we would've had peace in our time, the hungry would've been fed, we would have streets paved with gold, the planet would now be a utopian paradise.
Very well said. I can't rep you again so soon.
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  #54  
Old 12 May 17, 13:46
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Sorry my friends as I do have a full time consuming job plus working part time trying to keep the historical truthfulness in a respectable state in this Noble Forum.

I am reading here and see clear evidence of those who are suffering from a lack of understanding and study upon the matter at hand.

If one had studied the time period, one would know that LBJ retained the JFK personnel as a vital strategic movement so as to dupe the American people that he remained faithful to the JFK design of withdrawn and peace in Vietnam. Additionally, it was part of a huge agenda to dupe the American people; that the highly advanced and secretive Coup 1963 never happen; because there was no militant change to turn the War from an advisory level training role of short duration to a major ground war offensive by US conventional military to conquer South Vietnam also within a short duration (which was proven wrong later as it fall into a quagmire of lengthy duration). Additionally, this gameplay at a high level was designed only to get LBJ to his re-election consummation of 1964; whereupon he may now rip the peaceful looking sheep skin off and expose himself as a warmongering Wolf that he was to become. This was all planned out carefully.

Your odd but excellent point that JFK "did not have a Tonkin Gulf" device supports my position not yours. JFK had no need to have a phony construction as an excuse to seize the leadership role of war maker, solely from the Presidential position, because JFK was LEAVING VIETNAM.

Your false claim that the killing of Diem "is what soured" JFK on the Vietnam War is simply wrong. JFK was shocked into massive loss of confidence in that part (militant warhawks) of the high level of the national security agendas and military whose irresponsible and irrational behavior he ascertained in the Cuba crisis earlier. All that crazy talk of nuclear bombing and land war in Cuba with their claiming an acceptable risk of WW3. JFK simple was not to trust these kind of nuts with a Vietnam intervention. He stopped them in Cuba and Laos; why would he not stop them in Vietnam?????
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Old 12 May 17, 14:21
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phil74501

You make a mistake in the invention that I claimed the JFK people "just blindly followed LBJ's commands". You are correct in some area of your evaluation of why some stayed (duty to country, devotion to the Kennedy family). You clearly overlook the truth that most did not have a clue that the Coup of 1963 had just gone down in a high level secretive operation. A few heard of it but it is just too unbelievable to them to think their own government/corporation elites would do such an unpatriotic criminal act in the name of their personal political/religious ideology and personal gain. There exist those who got demoralized and disgusted by the fear and oppression by LBJ in his fearfulness that the JFK loyalists did secretly know and would try to undermine LBJ within. They would resign over a period of time.

There exist a significant number insiders who I believe supported the Coup in their silence and obfuscation. An excellent example in my speculation is Melvin Lair. Just look at those who opposed JFK in Cuba and how well they enjoyed LBJ in Vietnam. I already commented on McNamara and his criminal rationalization. Hey he was formulating JFK withdrawing from Vietnam and he cowardly switched to LBJ intervention without showing any discomfort on the surface but suffer within. Many simply were functioning under fear and distrust and ignorance.

One of your greatest weakness of argument is your fixation upon LBJ, as the master mind of the entire operation, and why with his displacement did all not just denounce him and expose the Coup. The truth is LBJ was just a tool of the principal players of the Deep State and there was never a time to step forward safely without a chance of death.

Your last sentence is plain silly as I do not know of any serious JFK researchers saying what you claimed they are saying here.
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Old 12 May 17, 14:26
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phil74501
Your last sentence is plain silly as I do not know of any serious JFK researchers saying what you claimed they are saying here.
The idea that there is a 'serious Kenndy researcher' is rather silly.

I guess it means who is wearing the most tin foil.
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Old 12 May 17, 14:52
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I am suddenly thinking of my neighbors being so upset over a neighborhood Dog that goes around urinating on our vehicle wheels parked in our driveways. The neighbors complain about it but I find it all very humorous. I like Dogs and this one is just being a Dog; marking his territory with his urine. Which is the Dog way of saying: this area is my domain and not yours. No one is validating the Dog and his claim so all is well in the Neighborhood!
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Old 26 May 17, 14:24
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What do you guys think about the possibility of LBJ being involved in the assassination of his archerival, Bob Kennedy and the timely death of JFK?
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Old 26 May 17, 17:36
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What do you guys think about the possibility of LBJ being involved in the assassination of his archerival, Bob Kennedy and the timely death of JFK?
It's always been a strong possibility that LBJ was involved and/or had working knowledge of the plot against JFK. I'm sure the same forces and motivators also contributed to the removal of RFK in 1968 and for a lot of the same reasons. I don't think it would be too far fetched to say this also had something to do with the demise of MLK also.
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Old 26 May 17, 22:06
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It's always been a strong possibility that LBJ was involved and/or had working knowledge of the plot against JFK. I'm sure the same forces and motivators also contributed to the removal of RFK in 1968 and for a lot of the same reasons. I don't think it would be too far fetched to say this also had something to do with the demise of MLK also.
I finished reading "Passage of Power" (Caro) and it is noted that LBJ was excited and eager to find out if Bob Kennedy (in critical condition) was dead, and made many attempts.

Then he tried to keep his corpse from being buried at Arlington
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