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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > East Asia and the Pacific

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East Asia and the Pacific China - Japan - Australia and challenges throughout East Asia.

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  #1  
Old 24 Mar 17, 10:43
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China Issues Warning to US Bomber Flying in East China Sea

China, the country that virtually single-handedly invented imperialism, is again being stupid. The bomber crew quite rightly ignored the offensive Chinese warning.

Quote:
Pacific Air Forces ... did not recognize the Chinese Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) when it was announced in November of 2013, and does not recognize it today," Ventura told CNN.

"The ADIZ has not changed our operations."

China established the zone despite objections from Tokyo and Washington. A US report from last year suggested that it was not being fully enforced.

Tensions have flared numerous times over the Senkaku Islands, which China calls Diaoyu Islands, including face-offs between Japanese and Chinese warplanes and ships.

The US plane was flying 70 nautical miles southwest of South Korea's Jeju Island.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/22/politi...ned/index.html

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  #2  
Old 28 Mar 17, 08:45
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Cool Nacho territory...

Hey Chief. I wonder what steps the PRC would need to take in order to (even more ) aggressively warn away a US military aircraft? Have they taken to scrambling fighters in order to escort US aircraft out of "their airspace"? Is there an armed standoff in the offing? What's your thinking on this? Do we need to have a CAG nearby?
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  #3  
Old 28 Mar 17, 08:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
China, the country that virtually single-handedly invented imperialism, (...) ]
How do you figure that ?
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Old 28 Mar 17, 10:21
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Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
How do you figure that ?
Possibly because they were the first country to be ruled by an emperor?
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Old 28 Mar 17, 10:26
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No doubt, but did they practice imperialism ?

Quote:
the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies.
To simply be ruled by an emperor is not usually considered "imperialism", I think there are other candidates for that, perhaps not ruled by an emperor.

Also the first "Chinese" emperor, apparently, comes to the scene rather late, after the first "Persian" one for instance.
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  #6  
Old 28 Mar 17, 11:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
No doubt, but did they practice imperialism ?



To simply be ruled by an emperor is not usually considered "imperialism", I think there are other candidates for that, perhaps not ruled by an emperor.

Also the first "Chinese" emperor, apparently, comes to the scene rather late, after the first "Persian" one for instance.
Depends on how one defines an empire. The definition you quote fails international law which defines an empire as a distinct entity formed of a number of existing or former entities now under a common governance. Thus founding colonies does not automatically create an empire - the Greek city states founded colonies but were not in most cases empires as defined under international law as these colonies were autonomous. Empires may contain empires thus India was an empire under Victoria as it contained entities such as Scinde, Oude, Hyderabad etc but was its self contained within the British Empire also under Victoria. However technically speaking in legal terms the UK is also an empire and at one time so were England, Scotland and Ireland in their own right (not sure about Wales) but are no longer as the component entities have ceased to have a distinct legal existence (the Kingdom of Mercia has no form of existence other than on an historical map for example). Thinking about it Canada and Australia are also empires and so is (I guess) the USA. Germany is technically still an empire.

China was certainly an empire containing a number of former kingdoms - whether it still is is a moot point - do these ancient kingdoms retain any distinct identities? I would think the current status of Tibet might well qualify China as an empire
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Old 28 Mar 17, 11:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Depends on how one defines an empire. The definition you quote fails international law which defines an empire as a distinct entity formed of a number of existing or former entities now under a common governance. Thus founding colonies does not automatically create an empire - the Greek city states founded colonies but were not in most cases empires as defined under international law as these colonies were autonomous. Empires may contain empires thus India was an empire under Victoria as it contained entities such as Scinde, Oude, Hyderabad etc but was its self contained within the British Empire also under Victoria. However technically speaking in legal terms the UK is also an empire and at one time so were England, Scotland and Ireland in their own right (not sure about Wales) but are no longer as the component entities have ceased to have a distinct legal existence (the Kingdom of Mercia has no form of existence other than on an historical map for example). Thinking about it Canada and Australia are also empires and so is (I guess) the USA. Germany is technically still an empire.

China was certainly an empire containing a number of former kingdoms - whether it still is is a moot point - do these ancient kingdoms retain any distinct identities? I would think the current status of Tibet might well qualify China as an empire
New York is the "Empire State". Anyone know why?
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Old 28 Mar 17, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparlingo View Post
New York is the "Empire State". Anyone know why?
'Cause George Washington said so.

Long before Qin Shi Huang came on the scene, various Chinese states had been vying for ascendancy for centuries. Qin's may have been the first lasting, or successful empire, but it wasn't the first Chinese attempt at empire.

I'd guess that the first imperialists were Sargon of Akkadia and his followers, though to be honest, given the nature of Homo sapiens, I'm sure that one tribe of cave dwellers tried to off their neighbors about 10,000 years before the Sumerians emulated them.
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Old 28 Mar 17, 14:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparlingo View Post
New York is the "Empire State". Anyone know why?
Not George W.- Adam Smith was making references to New York as being the likely capitol of the empire ten years before GW's letter and he was not the only one, various British economists were predicting that if America grew at its predicted rate the commercial seat of the old British empire might soon relocate to NYS. This did not go down well in London or Williamsberg but since many of the economists lived in Auld Reekie (well named) they didn't care a tinkers eructation

If such a transfer had taken place before the AWI would make a good alt history topic.
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Old 28 Mar 17, 14:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Not George W.- Adam Smith was making references to New York as being the likely capitol of the empire ten years before GW's letter and he was not the only one, various British economists were predicting that if America grew at its predicted rate the commercial seat of the old British empire might soon relocate to NYS. This did not go down well in London or Williamsberg but since many of the economists lived in Auld Reekie (well named) they didn't care a tinkers eructation

If such a transfer had taken place before the AWI would make a good alt history topic.
You're offering a take-off on something that was covered here, and in greater depth in this tome.



Gotta make ya wonder though, how much happier we'd have been under Dutch rule than British.

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Old 28 Mar 17, 15:09
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No I'm referring to growth predictions under British rule by Adam Smith, Hume and others - not saying they wqere right merely pointing out that seat of empire was used about NY by others long before GW's letter.
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Old 28 Mar 17, 15:31
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No I'm referring to growth predictions under British rule by Adam Smith, Hume and others - not saying they wqere right merely pointing out that seat of empire was used about NY by others long before GW's letter.
Didn't know about Adam Smith's and Hume's (are you referring to the famed jurist David Lord Hume?) forecast, but upon learning of it, I can see how they might have come to that conclusion. It's what prompted the restored Stuart's to go after Nieuw Amsterdam, and what prompted Col Nicolls to accept Peter Stuyvesant's terms.
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Old 28 Mar 17, 17:03
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This did not go down well in London or Williamsberg but since many of the economists lived in Auld Reekie (well named) they didn't care a tinkers eructation

.
I had to look it up, best definition I could find of "eructation" is that it's a fancy word for belch. Full marks for that one Mark!
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Old 29 Mar 17, 03:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Depends on how one defines an empire. The definition you quote fails international law which defines an empire as a distinct entity formed of a number of existing or former entities now under a common governance. Thus founding colonies does not automatically create an empire - the Greek city states founded colonies but were not in most cases empires as defined under international law as these colonies were autonomous. Empires may contain empires thus India was an empire under Victoria as it contained entities such as Scinde, Oude, Hyderabad etc but was its self contained within the British Empire also under Victoria. However technically speaking in legal terms the UK is also an empire and at one time so were England, Scotland and Ireland in their own right (not sure about Wales) but are no longer as the component entities have ceased to have a distinct legal existence (the Kingdom of Mercia has no form of existence other than on an historical map for example). Thinking about it Canada and Australia are also empires and so is (I guess) the USA. Germany is technically still an empire.
China was certainly an empire containing a number of former kingdoms - whether it still is is a moot point - do these ancient kingdoms retain any distinct identities? I would think the current status of Tibet might well qualify China as an empire
Could it be the word Imperialism is actually closer related to the Roman Imperator (conqueror of foreign lands) than to Emperor (ruler over kings) ?

Just uniting neighbouring lands under single rule, as happened pretty much everywhere, is rarely considered Imperialism.
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Old 29 Mar 17, 06:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose50 View Post
Hey Chief. I wonder what steps the PRC would need to take in order to (even more ) aggressively warn away a US military aircraft? Have they taken to scrambling fighters in order to escort US aircraft out of "their airspace"? Is there an armed standoff in the offing? What's your thinking on this? Do we need to have a CAG nearby?
You're forgetting the Hainan EP3 incident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan...dent#Aftermath

The Chicoms have a thing for ramming, in the air and on the sea.
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