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Vietnam War The Battle for Vietnam. .

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  #46  
Old 12 May 17, 13:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
My guy wore the 1st Cav patch with an Airborne tab as a combat patch. I never saw it worn that way before...
I've spent the better part of this morning trying to find a contemporary photograph of a 1st Brigade (Airborne), 1st Cavalry soldier wearing the divisional patch with an airborne tab. There's plenty of pictures of a 1st Cav Airborne patch, whether real or not, and pictures of 'authentic' shirts for sale with just such insignia. But I could only find one showing the combination actually being worn.
Coincidentally to the quoted post, it's of an airborne infantry sergeant using it as a right shoulder combat patch. The photo was found on the 'US Militaria Forum' and I'll credit the picture to them.

It's probably a pretty rare combination to find, seeing as how the 1st Brigade was only on jump status for just over a year, but there should be photographic examples somewhere. I'm particularly interested in the period between the division being activated in July and deployed in September, 1965. Any ideas where to look?

Cheers,
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  #47  
Old 12 May 17, 14:28
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Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
101combatvet, If you were assigned to the 1st Bde, 1st Cav when it was on jump status, then you wear the Cav patch with the airborne tab over it. I saw at least a hundred cases between 1965-1989, though I don't remember any wearers who were legs. It's the same with the 101 Abn patch. If you serve a combat tour with the 101, which is no longer on jump status, you still wear the patch with the airborne tab. It is a part of the Division's history, and the 101st Airborne vets from WWII on want it kept with the patch. (ps, Not a 101st Abn vet, but attend a lot of their reunions here in south Florida. At this year's snowbird reunion there were three WWII vets, two who had served in the division, and one buddy who had served in the 11th Abn in the Philippines.)

In the case of the 1st Cav, having served in the 1st Bde when it returned from RVN, I can state with authority that the airborne tab is/was not considered a part of the 1st Cav patch unless you are/were in the Divisional Ranger company or LRSRs unit.
He was a Ranger so LRSR makes sense, he was not a member of the attached Ranger Company.
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  #48  
Old 13 May 17, 15:46
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Of course, there were no LRSR's in the army yet, other than the LRRP companies, and those are what were reflagged (perhaps more correctly, re-guidoned) lettered companies of the 75th Rangers.

Now, I believe the 1st Bde did have a Pathfinder Detachment.
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  #49  
Old 13 May 17, 17:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
...
In the case of the 1st Cav, having served in the 1st Bde when it returned from RVN, I can state with authority that the airborne tab is/was not considered a part of the 1st Cav patch unless you are/were in the Divisional Ranger company or LRSRs unit.
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Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
He was a Ranger so LRSR makes sense, he was not a member of the attached Ranger Company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
Of course, there were no LRSR's in the army yet, other than the LRRP companies, and those are what were reflagged (perhaps more correctly, re-guidoned) lettered companies of the 75th Rangers.

Now, I believe the 1st Bde did have a Pathfinder Detachment.
Do you mean Long Range Surveillance/LRS? There were LRSD (Detachments) in divisions and LRSCs (Companies) in Corps, but those are 1980s creations. I've never heard of LRSRs.

Before LRS, there were Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols (LRRP) Companies and Detachments, and sometimes Long Range Patrol (LRP) Companies and Detachments. If I remember correctly, they were first formed in Germany in the late-50s, then adapted for Vietnam in the mid-60s. These units were formed in Vietnam between December 1965 and February 1967. All of these were reflagged as lettered companies of the 75th Infantry Regiment (now the 75th Ranger Regiment) on 1 February 1969. "Eyes Behind the Lines", available at the Combat Studies Institute as a free pdf, usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/gebhardt_LRRP.pdf, has a pretty decent overview of both the 1950s-60s in Europe and the Vietnam, as well as the 1980s and following LRSUs. He says that the 1st Cavalry formed their provisional LRRP company in February 1967, which is well after the 1st Brigade had stopped maintaining airborne capability.
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  #50  
Old 14 May 17, 10:18
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Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
Of course, there were no LRSR's in the army yet, other than the LRRP companies, and those are what were reflagged (perhaps more correctly, re-guidoned) lettered companies of the 75th Rangers.

Now, I believe the 1st Bde did have a Pathfinder Detachment.
Then back to square one. Maybe, that mumbling wasn't much of anything after all. However, there were enough high-speed operators to question him, but no one ever did. He may have been in H Company, 75th Rangers, but nothing on his wall of fame about that, odd from this hero. I'll have to find out his name and poke around to find out what unit he was in. Could have been as simple as being in the Pathfinder platoon and just never went to the school for the torch.
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  #51  
Old 14 May 17, 10:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
Do you mean Long Range Surveillance/LRS? There were LRSD (Detachments) in divisions and LRSCs (Companies) in Corps, but those are 1980s creations. I've never heard of LRSRs.

Before LRS, there were Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols (LRRP) Companies and Detachments, and sometimes Long Range Patrol (LRP) Companies and Detachments. If I remember correctly, they were first formed in Germany in the late-50s, then adapted for Vietnam in the mid-60s. These units were formed in Vietnam between December 1965 and February 1967. All of these were reflagged as lettered companies of the 75th Infantry Regiment (now the 75th Ranger Regiment) on 1 February 1969. "Eyes Behind the Lines", available at the Combat Studies Institute as a free pdf, usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/gebhardt_LRRP.pdf, has a pretty decent overview of both the 1950s-60s in Europe and the Vietnam, as well as the 1980s and following LRSUs. He says that the 1st Cavalry formed their provisional LRRP company in February 1967, which is well after the 1st Brigade had stopped maintaining airborne capability.
How long did the 1st Brigade retain jump status?
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  #52  
Old 14 May 17, 10:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
How long did the 1st Brigade retain jump status?
Sometime in 1966, apparently before the initial 1 year tour of the first troopers.

http://www.jumpingmustangs.com/jmhistory.html

http://www.jumpingmustangs.com/allbrigade.html


Edited to add:
Oops, didn't read far enough- the second article says 1 July 1966.

The division's quarterly AAR for 1 May - 21 July 1966 is at DTIC, but not posted digitally http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/AD0390505 . You might be able to get a copy somehow. It might mention something like this significant change to the division's capabilities.

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  #53  
Old 14 May 17, 20:06
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82redleg,

I read the articles you cited on the 'Jumping Mustangs' website and found them very informative. Both were written by Colonel Kenneth Mertel. The one relating the history of the 1st Brigade (Airborne) of the 1st Cavalry Division states that the brigade was "no longer on airborne status as of July 1, 1966."

I have a copy of Anatomy of a Division: The 1st Cav in Vietnam (1987) by Shelby Stanton and in it he states that "the airborne capability of the 1st Cavalry Division was officially terminated on 1 September 1967," but doesn't cite a source for this. His book is heavily footnoted and the bibliography shows that he drew most of his material from the division's quarterly reports which were also called Operational Report - Lessons Learned (ORLL).

Now some may feel that Mertel's and Stanton's dates are mutually exclusive, however after studying bureaucratic military records for the past couple of decades, I don't. The date of an administrative event actually being implemented and the date it was promulgated in an official order can sometimes be months apart, implementation usually (but not always) preceding promulgation.

I have a copy of the division's ORLL for the period August - October 1966 dated 22 Nov 66 (the report immediately after the one you cite from the DTIC). In it the 1st Brigade and its three constituent battalions are still referred to as airborne. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the one prior. I do have the ORLL covering September, 1967, but it doesn't refer to the removal of airborne status within the the division either.

I have several books on the 1st Cav (many are cited by Stanton in his bibliography) which I will check to see if they have further info on this subject.

We'll figure this out, somehow.

Cheers,
Dan.
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Old 21 Jun 17, 06:45
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All she wrote

The definitive skinny:
http://www.specialforcesassociation....03.07.2013.pdf
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Old 21 Jun 17, 12:18
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Jeffy, I ran into three SF retirees at the SF "International" convention in Fayetteville last week who had served in the 101st Division in Vietnam, one of whom was a LRRP (L Co, 75th Rangers) in 1970. All three had the same reaction to the idea of a 101st Combat Jump in 1970; No effin way!
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Old 21 Jun 17, 13:11
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..I ran into three SF retirees at the SF "International" convention in Fayetteville last week..
Off topic, I know, but did you see CSM Sammy Hernandez there? He was my BN CSM once upon a time. And he had some interesting SF experiences.
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Old 21 Jun 17, 13:55
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The definitive skinny:
Very interesting document. Wherever did you find it? Can it be considered credible?

Cheers,
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Old 21 Jun 17, 22:27
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Very interesting document. Wherever did you find it? Can it be considered credible?

Cheers,
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Its compiled by the Special Forces Association, from multiple sources. It is good stuff, but cannot be considered definitive. As a private organization, they are unofficial and have limited ability to access classified sources.
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Old 22 Jun 17, 09:26
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
Jeffy, I ran into three SF retirees at the SF "International" convention in Fayetteville last week who had served in the 101st Division in Vietnam, one of whom was a LRRP (L Co, 75th Rangers) in 1970. All three had the same reaction to the idea of a 101st Combat Jump in 1970; No effin way!
Thanks for the followup. Together with Sherman's list, the guy's chances are are as near zero as they can be, even with benefit of the doubt factored in.

Thanks again to everyone else who engaged on the story.
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Old 22 Jun 17, 09:48
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Its compiled by the Special Forces Association, from multiple sources. It is good stuff, but cannot be considered definitive. As a private organization, they are unofficial and have limited ability to access classified sources.
Thanks. My limited understanding is that all SEA SF ops, maybe all US SEA VN War Era ops any type, have been declassified. Informed correctives welcome.

Dan M: I received the pdf from a younger old war dog on another forum, and then searched the title on the web to get the hyperlink I posted here.
http://www.specialforcesassociation....03.07.2013.pdf

(Per earlier discussion on this thread about problems with classifying this or that jump, I like the intro paragraph in the pdf. I'll leave that part of the discussion up to the resident experts on Airborne.)

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