HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

Notices and Announcements

Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 26 Feb 17, 14:53
MikeMeech's Avatar
MikeMeech MikeMeech is offline
Gunnery Sergeant
UK
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Clacton-on-Sea
Posts: 178
MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
The US Army Corps of engineers did a report on German AT mines in 1919 it reported that the majority of British losses were through AT mines

From notes taken from the report

The Germans produced approximately 3,852,000 land mines, with an average monthly production rate of 108,000 in 1917 and 128,000 in 1918. Almost all of these were AT mines with some AP mines used t
to discourage mine clearing.

US reports on the effectiveness of German AT mines based on the Mk V* and the Renault FT a few of the results
  • One 3-inch high-explosive shell buried 6 inches under track V* No effect FT Permanently disabled
  • One 6-inch high-explosive shell buried 6 inches under track V* Permanently disabled, FT not tested
  • One 3-inch high-explosive shell on ground under belly V* not tested FT Permanently disabled
  • One 6-inch high-explosive shell on ground under belly V* Permanently disabled FT Completely destroyed
  • 2 pounds triton buried 6 inches under track V* No test FT Heavy damage
  • 15 pounds of triton buried 6 inches under track V* Permanently disabled FT No test

During the period 8 August 1918 to 11 November 1918, the British tunnelling companies supporting the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th armies removed 6,714 German mines (and 4,272 British antitank mines) In addition Canadian and Australian engineers lifted considerable numbers of mines.

Captain Debeque, an American engineer inspected German defensive preparations and found,

The report describes over 20 different types of German AT mines. The principle types were as follows
Type A 40 X 15 X 10 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 6” HE Shell
Type B 40 X 15 X 15 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 6” HE Shell
Type C 18 X 14 X 6 sheet metal box Pressure (“yoke type”) 3 kg of Perdite German Flachmine 17
Type D 27 X 16 X 12 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) Perdite
Type E 144 X 10 X 10 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 6” HE Shell
Type F 66 X 16 X 12 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) two 6” HE Shells A double Type A
Type G 60 X 18 X 15 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 9.7” HE Shell
Type H 36 X 24 X 30 Pressure 12 kg of Perdite or 6” HE Shell Anti-disarming feature
Type I 19 X 13.5 X 16 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 10” HE Shell
Type J HE Shell fitted with plunger igniter Pressure 6” or 8” HE Shell Cover w/ 4” wide board
Type K Wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) two or three 6” HE Shells
Type L 19 X 13 X 7 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 20 kg HE
Type M1 45 X 20 X 20 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 25cm HE Shell
Type M2 40 X 16 X 16 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 15cm HE Shell
Type N 102 X 20 fuze coupled to the main charge Pressure 10 kg HE “pit mine,” two variants found
Type O antipersonnel mine
Type P A pit-type trap, 3ft deep, 8-12ft dia. pressure HE Shell
Type Q 68 X 15 X 10 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 15-21cm HE Shell
Type R 120 X 7.5 X 9.5 wooden box Pressure (Shu mine type) 15-21cm HE Shell

German AT minefields were often booby trapped

I could go on but it is evident that by 1939 the British army probably had more experience of dealing with AT mines in action than any other army
Hi

Thanks for that, it is very interesting information. Have you the actual details from the report that justifies the statement that anti-tank mines were the major cause of British tank losses as most sources believe that German artillery was the biggest killer, indeed the success rate of mines is considered minor. For example 'The New Excalibur' by A J Smithers, page 210, mentions that "The four tanks detailed to attack the Quadrilateral again had bad luck, one being turned absolutely turtle by a minefield." the author then states:
"This tank must have had the melancholy distinction of being the first ever to be wrecked by such means. Both sides had been laying mines since soon after Cambrai but they were not effective, usually being made out of old shell cases."
In 'Men, Ideas and Tanks' by J P Harris page 186 mentions that the Germans laid minefields only occasionally "when time allowed", which after the Hindenburg Line fell the Germans had in short supply to prepare extensive defences.
The losses to German guns were quite high, for Amiens one source gives 120 casualties of tanks on August 8 (1/4 of losses), 40 (1/3) on August 9, and 67 (1/2) on August 10. Until the end of the war tanks were still mechanically unreliable and were still breaking down rather often and were used in diminishing numbers. I have yet to see figures that show that the majority of tanks were being lost to mines.
The British also produced lots of mines, however, I think only British (and American) tanks became casualties to them.
A 'Wiki' source suggests that the US Army lost 15% of American tanks due to mines, but I have not seen the original source for that.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 26 Feb 17, 18:39
DogDodger's Avatar
DogDodger DogDodger is offline
Colonel
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Chris
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: WV
Posts: 1,606
DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200] DogDodger is walking in the light [200]
Likewise, Fletcher in The British Tanks 1915-19 says of the forgotten British minefield using mines derived from 2" mortar bombs that the US 301st Tank Battalion stumbled upon on 29 September 1918: "A report, issued in mid-October, claimed that these mines had proved far more effective than any German mines so far encountered."

Jones, Rarey, and Icks in The Fighting Tanks since 1916, published in 1933, say of German WWI antitank methods: "Having finally recognized the fact that the artillery piece was the best of their antitank weapons, orders were issued following the Battle of Amiens on August 8, 1918, which greatly increased the number of guns per division...The present German doctrine of antitank defense is thought to be about as follows: ... (2) That weapons, especially artillery, using direct fire methods are the most effective means of combatting tanks." (Emphasis in original.)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 26 Feb 17, 22:54
eddie3rar's Avatar
eddie3rar eddie3rar is offline
Colonel
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: melbourne
Posts: 1,640
eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100] eddie3rar has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Professional armies laid defensive minefields based on the mine cluster. The cluster was built around a 'base mine' which was anti tank, around it were ap mines.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 28 Feb 17, 14:00
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is offline
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,158
MarkV is simply cracking [600]
MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie3rar View Post
Professional armies laid defensive minefields based on the mine cluster. The cluster was built around a 'base mine' which was anti tank, around it were ap mines.
Not in WW1 when the AP was hardly ever used and not always in WW2 - possibly most armies weren't professional!
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 18:26.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.