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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Latin America & the Caribbean

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Latin America & the Caribbean Including issues of Central and South America and Mexico.

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  #16  
Old 21 Feb 17, 03:48
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
No because in good part you also need a set of social values in place to make it work. That is a major reason why all of Central and South America have long been a failure compared to their Northern neighbors. They had the misfortune to be saddled with Spanish / Iberian culture.
Spain and Portugal are pretty much basket cases in Europe. They share a similar cultural foundation to other places with a long Spanish or Portuguese cultural presence. Look at the PI. It took a hit for having long been occupied by Spain.
The main difference is Classical Liberalism. Historically South America, Span and Portugal have always had extreme conservative values while the values of the Anglo Saxon world since the Glorious Revolution have been classical liberal.

Think Rule of Law, Free Trade, Freedom from arbitrary arrest, limits on the power of the executive etc. All stem from the Glorious Revolution.
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Last edited by Surrey; 21 Feb 17 at 04:08..
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  #17  
Old 21 Feb 17, 04:03
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Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
The main difference is Liberalism. Historically South America, Span and Portugal have always had extreme conservative values while the values of the Anglo Saxon world since the Glorious Revolution have been liberal.
There also seems to be an echo of the old Latin/German, Catholic/Protestant divides there.

Also many of the criticisms directed by North Americans towards the Mexicans appear similar to those made by Flemish nationalists towards Walloons.


Quote:
Think Rule of Law, Free Trade, Freedom from arbitrary arrest etc. All stem from the Glorious Revolution.
The Glorious Crossing and the Unlikely Revolution as they are known here



http://historiek.net/de-onwaarschijn...volutie/15917/

Shame the history and achievements of the Dutch Republic in regard to liberalism are so often ignored

Check this out, dated 1581.

http://cryptiana.web.fc2.com/docs/abj_dut.htm

Quote:
And when he does not behave thus,
but, on the contrary, oppresses them,
seeking opportunities to infringe their ancient customs and privileges,
exacting from them slavish compliance
then he is no longer a prince, but a tyrant,

(...)

they may not only disallow his authority,
but legally proceed to the choice of another prince for their defense.
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Last edited by Snowygerry; 21 Feb 17 at 04:12..
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  #18  
Old 21 Feb 17, 06:31
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Shame the history and achievements of the Dutch Republic in regard to liberalism are so often ignored
Critical role in modern concept of investment and the limited liability company?
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  #19  
Old 21 Feb 17, 08:32
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Rather the more political ones mentioned by Surrey above..

Quote:
Rule of Law, Free Trade, Freedom from arbitrary arrest, limits on the power of the executive etc.
Still the Dutch colonies in the West Indies for example where paradises of free trade when the French, Spanish and English were still suffering from mercantilism..

There's the original East India Company of course -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austri..._India_Company

but in general the concept of independent *trade* companies are the Guilds and the Hanzas.

The original "companies" were the military companies of the mercenary wars iirc,

Overall the Low Countries however are the ugly stepchild of liberal history , we were opposing tyrants when the lot of you still were tyrants
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Last edited by Snowygerry; 21 Feb 17 at 08:37..
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  #20  
Old 21 Feb 17, 09:55
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Old 21 Feb 17, 10:07
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  #22  
Old 21 Feb 17, 10:12
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Imagine we'd actually have some historical discussion here without a funny picture now and again
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  #23  
Old 21 Feb 17, 14:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
There also seems to be an echo of the old Latin/German, Catholic/Protestant divides there.

Also many of the criticisms directed by North Americans towards the Mexicans appear similar to those made by Flemish nationalists towards Walloons.




The Glorious Crossing and the Unlikely Revolution as they are known here



http://historiek.net/de-onwaarschijn...volutie/15917/

Shame the history and achievements of the Dutch Republic in regard to liberalism are so often ignored

Check this out, dated 1581.

http://cryptiana.web.fc2.com/docs/abj_dut.htm
Follows similar liberal principles to the Bill of Rights and is in direct opposition to the absolutism of France, Spain and where the Stuarts would try and take Britain.

The Dutch received significant military support from England during Elizabeth's reign with English troops deployed to help the Dutch in their war with Spain.

The Dutch returned the favour a century later and helped the English throw off their French backed tyrant James.
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  #24  
Old 22 Feb 17, 03:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
Follows similar liberal principles to the Bill of Rights and is in direct opposition to the absolutism of France, Spain and where the Stuarts would try and take Britain.
It does not *follow* the Bill Of Rights - it predates it by almost two centuries and served as blueprint for subsequent similar declarations.

Quote:
The Dutch received significant military support from England during Elizabeth's reign with English troops deployed to help the Dutch in their war with Spain.

The Dutch returned the favour a century later and helped the English throw off their French backed tyrant James
Sure - the common history goes back quite a bit further,

this fellow still points my way to work in the morning, reminding me of an alliance the city of Gent made with Edward III against the king of France, to secure "free" trade across the channel

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Last edited by Snowygerry; 22 Feb 17 at 05:03..
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  #25  
Old 22 Feb 17, 05:51
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Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Still the Dutch colonies in the West Indies for example where paradises of free trade when the French, Spanish and English were still suffering from mercantilism..
The Cloggies themselves were the biggest supplier of arms to Spain - whilst the Spanish were trying to conquer and convert them.
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Old 22 Feb 17, 09:17
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
The Cloggies themselves were the biggest supplier of arms to Spain - whilst the Spanish were trying to conquer and convert them.
Well that's the essence free trade isn't it - private profit over national interest
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Old 22 Feb 17, 10:26
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Originally Posted by Karri View Post
I'm glad you've finally found memes.
Actually, I found out how to post pictures from outside sites.

Next, YouTube!
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Old 22 Feb 17, 14:55
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Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Well that's the essence free trade isn't it - private profit over national interest
Yes, it IS.

A prosperous population is happy and has more freedom as they are not beholden to their Government Masters and their uber-rich cronies.

Frustrated despots HATE that, and do all they can to annihilate prosperity. Governments should fear their people, not the other way 'round... as you may have heard.
It is the only thing that can keep Govt's even somewhat honest, and responsive to the hopes & desires of the common folk.

and time for a quickie -

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  #29  
Old 22 Feb 17, 15:37
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I think of socialism as an updated version of feudalism.
North Korea and Cuba are de facto monarchies.
All power flows from the ruler as in both of the above, Venezuela, the USSR and all socialist countries.
There is no real rule of law with the rulers being above the law, Rex lex rather than lex Rex.
The ruler gets support by giving his clients rewards. An individual advances himself through his service to the ruler.
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Old 22 Feb 17, 15:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
I think of socialism as an updated version of feudalism.
North Korea and Cuba are de facto monarchies.
All power flows from the ruler as in both of the above, Venezuela, the USSR and all socialist countries.
There is no real rule of law with the rulers being above the law, Rex lex rather than lex Rex.
The ruler gets support by giving his clients rewards. An individual advances himself through his service to the ruler.

Interesting.
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