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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #121  
Old 18 Sep 17, 12:10
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
No, you just have to say you're a Christian. Nothing more needed.
or I'm male-female-neutral-etc and that's what you are
example only for clarification
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  #122  
Old 18 Sep 17, 12:12
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
or I'm male-female-neutral-etc and that's what you are
example only for clarification
If you put money in the plate you're a good Christian. Nothing else much matters.
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  #123  
Old 18 Sep 17, 13:49
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Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
Conquests do tend to involve military force. This was not restricted to the expanson of Islam in the 7th and 8th century.

It has been calculated that by the year 1000 75% of the existing population of Hispania had converted to Islam. This has been attributed both to the genuine appeal of Islam through the comparitive simplicity of liturgy and doctrine, fostered by the change of language (-bearing in mind that there wasn't the racially fuelled gulf that grew up later), and also to the tax breaks that converts obtained in contrast to the rest of the population who shouldered a disproportionate tax burden. Conversion was certainly never imposed and indeed it was inconvenient for the Ummayad government, given the reduced receipts for the exchequer. Repression of Christian & Jewish communities grew up later, with the hardening of attitudes in later centuries.

Raiding into the Christian enclaves in the north served both to provide booty for local Arab chieftains and their followers and also as an outlet for warlike energies - a pattern that could be observed in Christian kingdoms elsewhere.



'Reconquista' is a term that tends to be avoided today, the concept having been exaggerated by Catholic nationalist propaganda in the C19th and C20th, not least by the Fascist Catholic establishment of the Franco era.

When the Moorish Kingdom of Granada was finally extinguished in 1492, there had been a Muslim presence in Iberia for over 700 years. To date the European presence in the Americas has lasted just over 500. It is therefore simplistic to represent the Muslim population of al Andalus over that 700 year period simply as a foreign occupying power when, politically, socially- and militarily, the situation was much more complex and fluid.

http://ireneu.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01...-1082.html?m=1

The 'Reconquista' which ended in the surrender of Granada in1492 was more about providing a cause against which the Catholic Monarchs could unite the disparate elements of Christian Iberia, than it was a war to liberate Christian lands from the infidel (The southern litoral had not been Christian land since AD 711).

The Nasrid kings of Granada had been vassals of Castile since the mid-C13th. The final war of conquest began when the last king, Muhammad XII, rashly refused to pay the customary tribute. This provided the pretext to resolve a longstanding strategic aim: finally to ensure control of the Gibraltar Strait after the capture of Gibraltar in 1462.

As a footnote, following the surrender of Granada, forcible conversion of the remaining Muslim population, followed by persecution from the Church, provoked uprisings in successive generations. On each occasion, defeat of the insurgents was used as an excuse for rapine and landgrabbing by Christian forces. The demonisation of the increasingly alienated 'Morisco' population as the 'enemy within' culminated, in 1609, in the forcible expulsion from Spain of those who remained.

Wars of conquest in the name of religion to obtain gold and land were not the preserve of Muslim powers.
The point is that Islam was not either conceived or practiced as a 'religion of peace' from the beginning of its existence-it was employed as a means of conquest.

And saying that other conquered also does not change the fact that Mohammed and his followers embarked on campaigns of conquest that continued after his death in his name.

Al Queda, ISIS, etc. is the refuse remains of those ideas, also in Mohammed's name.
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  #124  
Old 18 Sep 17, 16:25
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
You say he wasn't based on your desire to make your religion look better, despite the horrid history belief in gods has left us with. This is not the same as proving he wasn't religious. You have to be dishonest in this fashion because you have nothing else.
i'm not sure I follow you mate, which bit of this don't you like?-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25:37-40)
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  #125  
Old 18 Sep 17, 16:28
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
..you just have to say you're a Christian. Nothing more needed.
It doesn't work like that mate; there's a lot of people around who think they're good christians, but they've got a shock coming..-
Jesus said- "Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)
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  #126  
Old 18 Sep 17, 16:28
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
i'm not sure I follow you mate, which bit of this don't you like?-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25:37-40)
Who killed the most people in the Bible?

BTW, you know the NT is a mash-up of several different versions write a hundred or more years after the purported crucifixion, right?
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  #127  
Old 18 Sep 17, 16:31
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
It doesn't work like that mate; there's a lot of people around who think they're good christians, but they've got a shock coming..-
Jesus said- "Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)
"He" also said "there are those alive today who will see my return." That's was wrong too.
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  #128  
Old 18 Sep 17, 16:56
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Who killed the most people in the Bible?
BTW, you know the NT is a mash-up of several different versions write a hundred or more years after the purported crucifixion, right?
1- If ancient heathen tribes were disrupting the peace in the Bible they got their asses busted, just like today we're kicking ISIS ass..




2- Why on earth would anybody want to sit down and "invent" Christianity and get themselves thrown to the lions?..
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  #129  
Old 18 Sep 17, 17:01
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
"He" also said "there are those alive today who will see my return." That's was wrong too.
Jesus was talking about people seeing the establishing of Christianity on the earth. Mission accomplished, it became the biggest game on the park..

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  #130  
Old 18 Sep 17, 17:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
no--you have to practice your religion
...they usually are very hesitant to baptize your child, etc, unless you are practicing your faith
...of course they won't throw you out because they want your $$$$
...you could be screwing the pastor and they wouldn't throw you out
you could say you're a vegetarian --but you are not if you eat meat--you have to follow the rules
We don't have to do that here, I am on the rolls as a Christian although I steer clear of churches at all times.
How can the church 'prove' that you visit churches thereby affirming your Christianity.
The parents of a child simply have to produce their own baptism certificate in order for that child to be accepted into an .eg, catholic school, no proof of godliness is required.

Hitler never reneged on his faith, probably for the same reason as most of us, ie, it's a waste of time and who cares anyway?
Therefore as far as his church is concerned he is a Christian.
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  #131  
Old 18 Sep 17, 17:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
The point is that Islam was not either conceived or practiced as a 'religion of peace' from the beginning of its existence-it was employed as a means of conquest.

And saying that other conquered also does not change the fact that Mohammed and his followers embarked on campaigns of conquest that continued after his death in his name.

Al Queda, ISIS, etc. is the refuse remains of those ideas, also in Mohammed's name.
Religion of peace is just PC BS Muslims came up in the post colonial period
AQ is more like an idealistic counter revolution within Islam it's real face is the orthodoxy which is much more vile and corrupt.
If Muhammad was alive today he would be like king Abdullah not OBL
That's why these "moderate " Muslim leaders are a bigger threat
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  #132  
Old 18 Sep 17, 17:53
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Jesus was talking about people seeing the establishing of Christianity on the earth. Mission accomplished, it became the biggest game on the park..

Another lie.
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  #133  
Old 19 Sep 17, 00:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Another lie.
What, you're saying the Encyclopaedia Britannica map showing Christianity as the biggest game on the park is wrong?
Here, have a nice slice of pie instead..
PS- or if you're referring to Jesus's "this generation shall not pass away" quote, it could refer to the whole generation of humankind from Adam to the distant future. That's why people never said "that's a lie"..

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  #134  
Old 19 Sep 17, 03:13
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[I]'in hoc signo vinces'[/I]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
The point is that Islam was not either conceived or practiced as a 'religion of peace' from the beginning of its existence-it was employed as a means of conquest.

And saying that other conquered also does not change the fact that Mohammed and his followers embarked on campaigns of conquest that continued after his death in his name.

Al Queda, ISIS, etc. is the refuse remains of those ideas, also in Mohammed's name.
Any organised religion- or indeed, any utopian philosophy, can be exploited for vile ends, as history demonstrates. That the Arabs expanded from the peninsula fired by religiious zeal, and their awareness that both the Roman and Persian empires were crumbling at the edges, doesn't set Islam apart from any other religion in the age of faith. Both Muslim and Christian warlords, as well as the odd Pope and Holy Roman Emperor, acted in ways contrary to the tenets of their professed faith, and their inheritors still do so today. Even good men and women find themselves morally compromised in the pursuit and exercise of power.

Where does that truism leave us? The world tends to be run by hypocritical, warmongering bastards.

By saying that "Islam was neither conceived or practiced as a 'religion of peace'" - (I'm not sure why you set that last phrase in quotation marks)- how do you think that Islam was conceived? If indeed you can say it was conceived at all, given that its origin is expounded as divine revelation. You might have to take that up with God.

The truth is we have little to go on, as a historical source the Q'uran is as unreliable as the Divine Gospels, but certainly, as far as its conception is concerned, the fact that, as a guide for the life spiritual, Islam has identified itself with the philosphy of 'Submission' might be a clue.

You might also consider that the traditional Arab greeting, even in the mouth of hypocritcal, warmongering bastards, is 'Peace, God be with you.'

You will have to read the best part of 200 verses in the first Book of the Q'uran to find reference to violent acts on the part of the faithful and it is expressed in terms of resistance (Bearing in mind that Muhammad PBUH declared there was only one God while living in Mecca, which at that time was the Las Vegas of Arab paganism. Tactless, really).

It's worth quoting in full. This translation is from 1934, so less of a modern agenda.

190 Fight in the cause of God
Those who fight you
But do not transgress limits
For God loveth not transgressors


191 And slay them
Wherever ye catch them,
And turn them out
From where they have
Turned you out;
For tumult and oppression
Are worse than slaughter;
But fight them not
At the Sacred Mosque,
Unless they (first)
Fight you there; But if they fight you,
Slay them.
Such is the reward
Of those who suppress faith.




'in hoc signo vinces'
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  #135  
Old 19 Sep 17, 03:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
What, you're saying the Encyclopaedia Britannica map showing Christianity as the biggest game on the park is wrong?
Either that map is flawed, or Hitler was a Christian though, ...

It is in this context interesting you should quote Deuteronomy btw, since that's precisely what the Muslims claim foretold the coming of THEIR prophet,

Deuteronomy 18:15-18 New International Version (NIV)

Quote:
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.
We'd all have been better off if this entire Abrahamic mess had stayed in the desert, where it belongs imho.
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Last edited by Snowygerry; 19 Sep 17 at 03:48..
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