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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #91  
Old 17 Sep 17, 10:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
I sincerely doubt that Nazis can be classed as Christians, not only were they mass murderers, they were against the Christian religions (yes, there are more than one and it isn't monolithic), they vigorously persecuted Christian clergy, many of whom ended up in either concentration or death camps.

And just how were the middle ages 'much better for all three groups'?
The demographics of Germany during WW2 prove I am right...that is part of the negative of effect when one misunderstands religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
and it was a very small percentage
and, of course, they were not truly Christians if they murdered
so Christians killing 6 million is total crapola--come on Stoney--that's just plain ridiculous...

To address Moulin you say you bring the facts wrt your so called racial stats. Your "race" stats are not scientifically proven because race is a myth. Otoh we know the religious demographics of Germany during WW2 so in these regards I am bringing facts to the table.

Also please do not refer to my posts as crapola I have not used that language with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Whether or not you 'continue to provide this view' is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether or not 'this view' is accurate.

Perhaps this will help somewhat as a start:

Socinianism definition:

'Socinianism is a heresy concerning the nature of God. It is derived from two brothers of the surname Sozinni who lived in the 1500's in Poland.'

ttps://carm.org/socinianism

What does this have to do with the Enlightenment, the Founders, the Age of Reason, and Islam?

Further, what someone is accused of may or may not be accurate (as witness a myriad of postings and threads on this site).

Islam was started by Mohammed as a religion to unite Arab tribes into a war of conquest. Mohammed himself was both a merchant and a soldier and his wars of conquest ranged into the middle east and across North Africa. This is in great contrast to Christianity which was begun as a religion of peace.

And Christianity was violently opposed by Islam as witness the centuries of wars waged against the Eastern Roman Empire and anyone else who was not Moslem. Persia was conquered by Islam after it was badly defeated and weakened by the Eastern Romans.

The Crusades began as a request by the Eastern Roman Emperor to fight against the continued encroachment of Islam, by either Arabs or Turks.

I do not see by any reasonable or measureable historical method that Islam had any influence at all on the Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, or the Founders of the United States, not even by a lengthy stretch.
One of the positive effects of religion is shown during the middle ages a time when grand Kingdoms ran our world. The mythical concept of race was not around during the middle ages...black Europeans were a part of Catholic Kingdoms for example. The Golden Age of Islam saw a Baghdad that was probably the center of the world in the 9th-10th centuries. Jesus in Christianity and Muhammad in Islam have effected the founding fathers and men such as Napoleon Bonaparte in a profound way, the former shown itt in numerous links and later surely you know of.
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  #92  
Old 17 Sep 17, 10:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Whether or not you 'continue to provide this view' is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether or not 'this view' is accurate.

Perhaps this will help somewhat as a start:

Socinianism definition:

'Socinianism is a heresy concerning the nature of God. It is derived from two brothers of the surname Sozinni who lived in the 1500's in Poland.'

ttps://carm.org/socinianism

What does this have to do with the Enlightenment, the Founders, the Age of Reason, and Islam?

Further, what someone is accused of may or may not be accurate (as witness a myriad of postings and threads on this site).

Islam was started by Mohammed as a religion to unite Arab tribes into a war of conquest. Mohammed himself was both a merchant and a soldier and his wars of conquest ranged into the middle east and across North Africa. This is in great contrast to Christianity which was begun as a religion of peace.

And Christianity was violently opposed by Islam as witness the centuries of wars waged against the Eastern Roman Empire and anyone else who was not Moslem. Persia was conquered by Islam after it was badly defeated and weakened by the Eastern Romans.

The Crusades began as a request by the Eastern Roman Emperor to fight against the continued encroachment of Islam, by either Arabs or Turks.

I do not see by any reasonable or measureable historical method that Islam had any influence at all on the Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, or the Founders of the United States, not even by a lengthy stretch.
I meant to include something else in my response but it was lost in the shuffle. Early Arab Muslims may have been conquerors, but like Latin Catholics they were conquerors of the heart and mind. The fact that over 2 Billion Christians and 1.5 Billion Muslims exist today, and the fact that these two groups built some of the worlds most tolerate and strong Empires is a part of the positive effect of religion. Without Christians and Muslims there would be no PCs, IPhones, no medical centers, no Universities , a very dull life indeed it would be without the greatness of Islam and Christianity.
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  #93  
Old 17 Sep 17, 10:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flash View Post
Oh?
Care to name the benefits then?
Africa is still a place in which christians tell the natives that ' Yes, aids is bad but condoms are a lot worse'.
I can't honestly think of one single thing that any religion has brought to anyone that has actually improved their lot, can you.....really?

Be specific now.

I would also venture the opinion that those Spaniards that did show some respect to the indigenous South Americans done so in spite of rather than because of their faith.
Havent I provided enough links itt? At this point it seems we are going back and fourth...we just happen to disagree on the effect of religion.

Whether it is Jimmu , Allah, or Jesus...religion has united various groups for a common cause. It comes down to our opinions of various events of history that have been influenced by religion. If you mean to tell me that you can not think of one positive effect of religion I would disagree with you.
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  #94  
Old 17 Sep 17, 12:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
The demographics of Germany during WW2 prove I am right...that is part of the negative of effect when one misunderstands religion.




To address Moulin you say you bring the facts wrt your so called racial stats. Your "race" stats are not scientifically proven because race is a myth. Otoh we know the religious demographics of Germany during WW2 so in these regards I am bringing facts to the table.

Also please do not refer to my posts as crapola I have not used that language with you.



One of the positive effects of religion is shown during the middle ages a time when grand Kingdoms ran our world. The mythical concept of race was not around during the middle ages...black Europeans were a part of Catholic Kingdoms for example. The Golden Age of Islam saw a Baghdad that was probably the center of the world in the 9th-10th centuries. Jesus in Christianity and Muhammad in Islam have effected the founding fathers and men such as Napoleon Bonaparte in a profound way, the former shown itt in numerous links and later surely you know of.
I certainly will and put you on ignore until your ''facts'' are not so far out into space
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  #95  
Old 17 Sep 17, 13:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
The demographics of Germany during WW2 prove I am right...that is part of the negative of effect when one misunderstands religion.




To address Moulin you say you bring the facts wrt your so called racial stats. Your "race" stats are not scientifically proven because race is a myth. Otoh we know the religious demographics of Germany during WW2 so in these regards I am bringing facts to the table.

Also please do not refer to my posts as crapola I have not used that language with you.



One of the positive effects of religion is shown during the middle ages a time when grand Kingdoms ran our world. The mythical concept of race was not around during the middle ages...black Europeans were a part of Catholic Kingdoms for example. The Golden Age of Islam saw a Baghdad that was probably the center of the world in the 9th-10th centuries. Jesus in Christianity and Muhammad in Islam have effected the founding fathers and men such as Napoleon Bonaparte in a profound way, the former shown itt in numerous links and later surely you know of.
Zanj uprising

Mukhtar uprising

2 examples of race based politics the main factor in Muslim civil wars

Can't understand howyou defend religious fascism
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  #96  
Old 17 Sep 17, 15:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flash View Post
The man was a warrior, it is abundantly clear that his aim was riches and death to his opponents, as one would expect from any warrior.

His 'revelations' were almost definitely the result of seizures, perhaps some form of epilepsy and his 'teachings' have led to nothing but death, destructions and enslavement.
He used his physical ailment to convince his credulous followers that every episode was a 'message from god', not a bad idea really if you want a bunch of thickos to follow you.

You attempt to divorce this small and inconsequential man from his legacy by saying that 'well he was dead by then' but what you do not state is that those latter day followers followed him to the letter of his word and they still do.

The legacy of his cult is currently one of mankind's greatest problems.
Well, setting aside the serial assumptions, sweeping generalisations- and fanciful misreading of my post- how do you figure M was an inconsequential man, given that in these posts we are discussing the consequences of his actions and dicta almost fifteen hundred years later?

I had no idea he was vertically challenged.
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  #97  
Old 17 Sep 17, 15:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flash View Post
...Africa is still a place in which christians tell the natives that ' Yes, aids is bad but condoms are a lot worse'...
By "christians" you're referring only to the Catholic church.
Most other Christian denominations have no objection at all to condoms and think catholics are not true christians at all..
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  #98  
Old 17 Sep 17, 15:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Most other Christian denominations...think catholics are not true christians at all...
That is correct-even though all of the Christian denominations evolved in one way or another from the Catholic Church.

The Eastern Church broke with the Western Church in the Great Schism of 1054 over the position and authority of the Pope.

The others sprang from the Protestant Reformation or later...

Christianity is not monolithic and there are a great many more than one Christian Church.
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  #99  
Old 17 Sep 17, 16:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
..Christianity is not monolithic and there are a great many more than one Christian Church.
Yes, for example Jehovah's Witnesses sit out every war and refuse to fight, however not everybody is like them or the world would be ruled by the nazis and japs by now..

God said- "Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath..they come from faraway lands..to destroy the whole country..and destroy the sinners within it" (Isaiah ch 13)



Below- US troops ambush and kill SS officer Ernst Fick (left) and his driver, Germany April 29th 1945
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  #100  
Old 17 Sep 17, 17:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
If Adolf was a Christian, I'm Mary Poppins..
The demographics for the SS officer corps matched that of the general German population to 97%. They were "typical" Germans including their religions, Protestant and Catholic. Christians did the Holocaust. Get over it.
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Old 17 Sep 17, 18:57
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Social justice warriors prove we will never be free of religiosity.
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  #102  
Old 17 Sep 17, 18:59
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Social justice warriors prove we will never be free of religiosity.
Really? Never heard of Joel "Come on in, I know you're flooded" Osteen? As long as people want to be sheep they'll be fleeced.
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  #103  
Old 17 Sep 17, 19:00
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
The demographics for the SS officer corps matched that of the general German population to 97%. They were "typical" Germans including their religions, Protestant and Catholic. Christians did the Holocaust. Get over it.
To be in the SS was to be a Nazi. Nazis cannot be Christians of any type. They are anathema to each other.

And it wasn't just the SS who murdered innocents. The Wehrmacht did its ungodly share in the murders.

Collective guilt for the Holocaust is a real thing.
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  #104  
Old 17 Sep 17, 19:04
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
To be in the SS was to be a Nazi. Nazis cannot be Christians of any type. They are anathema to each other.

And it wasn't just the SS who murdered innocents. The Wehrmacht did its ungodly share in the murders.

Collective guilt for the Holocaust is a real thing.
Yeah, okay, so they weren't typical Germans? The SS ran the death camps. Didn't Hitler go to church? Rationalizing won't change the facts.
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  #105  
Old 17 Sep 17, 19:58
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Yeah, okay, so they weren't typical Germans? The SS ran the death camps. Didn't Hitler go to church? Rationalizing won't change the facts.
The facts are that the Nazis/Germans murdered over 11 million innocent civilians, 6 million of them Jews. That could not have been done without the collusion, active or passive, of the German population.

If they claimed they didn't know it was because 'they didn't want to know.'

Those are the facts and it has nothing to do with rationalization.
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