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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #46  
Old 24 Feb 17, 21:04
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... vs. treatment of the "Indian" courtesy of Francis Parkman, an American of the times who usually viewed FN peoples with Chauvinistic disdain and didn't much care for French/Canadiens. I don't quote him often, but this piece is ubiquitous and is more right than wrong:

“Spanish civilization crushed the Indian; English civilization scorned and neglected him; French civilization embraced and cherished him.”

- Francis Parkman, “The Jesuits in North America in the Seventeenth Century.”, 1867
sorry for the late response--
...now that you mention this, from my general readings of the French and Indian War, your quote is the theme I get....very interesting --why would the French be so different?
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  #47  
Old 25 Feb 17, 09:33
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The relations between the various tribes of the Americas and the various European powers varied over the years. To suggest the Tribes always faces oppression or were always the oppressors themselves would be untrue....if the Tribes always faced oppression from the various Europeans there would be no Tribes whatsoever left in the Americas. To often in these types of discussion either the various tribes or various European powers are painted with a broad brush. I will sit down and listen to what any European or Tribesman has to say, but I can not agree with those who blanket criticize all of the Tribes of the Americans or all European powers that came into contact with the various tribes of the Americas.

Here is the balanced scholarly approach to relations between the various European powers and various tribes of the Americas

Sometimes friendly, sometimes hostile, the Eastern tribes were no longer strangers to the Europeans.

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/outlines/h...-relations.php
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  #48  
Old 26 Feb 17, 15:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
sorry for the late response--
...now that you mention this, from my general readings of the French and Indian War, your quote is the theme I get....very interesting --why would the French be so different?
Trail of Tears: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
Manifest Destiny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
Good King Henri IV was ahead of his time when it came to religious tolerance.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1270766/
Samuel de Champlain was more tolerant of Native American's than most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champlain's_Dream
Daniel Greysolon du Lhut was also an architect of peace with the Native Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel..._Sieur_du_Lhut

When I grew up in the 1960's Cow Boy and Indian pictures were always on the TV depicting Indian Killers like Daniel Boone.
As Pierre Berton once said no Indian Killers stalked the Canadian Wilderness as the Native American's were important to the Fur Trade.
I believe that it happened here as well just not to the same extent as we had far less good farm land compared to the United States.
Most of our good earth had been bull dozed by the Glaciers during the Ice Ages south of the 49th parallel.
So at the end of the day the results could have been attributed to climate, geography and tolerance which the French seemed to have a bit more of.

Last edited by SmackUm; 26 Feb 17 at 15:24.. Reason: add links
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  #49  
Old 09 Sep 17, 20:37
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America..
"In the name of their Imperial Highnesses King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, we have come to civilise your heathen asses!"




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  #50  
Old 10 Sep 17, 09:39
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  #51  
Old 10 Sep 17, 14:29
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
"In the name of their Imperial Highnesses King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, we have come to civilise your heathen asses!"




"F*** you jack!"
well, the French wanted trade, more than to take over.....
did they want to ''civilize'' more than trade, help ,and/or convert to Christianity?
obviously the European technology was more advanced....
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  #52  
Old 10 Sep 17, 14:31
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--why would the French be so different?
The answer is in the question : Because.
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  #53  
Old 10 Sep 17, 16:04
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As Seb says, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
sorry for the late response--
...now that you mention this, from my general readings of the French and Indian War, your quote is the theme I get....very interesting --why would the French be so different?
... because France had just experienced years of brutal religious warfare, and had come to an accommodation, all embodied in the figure of Samuel de Champlain, the Father of New France. As explained by Pulitzer Prize winning historian David Hackett Fischer in his book "Champlain's Dream":

Quote:
"If nothing else, his life was a record of stamina with few equals. But always it was more than that. Champlain was a dreamer. He was a man of vision, and like most visionaries he dreamed of many things. Several scholars have written about his dream of finding a passage to China. Others have written of his dream for the colonization in New France. But all these visions were part of a larger dream that has not been studied. This war-weary soldier had a dream of humanity and peace in a world of cruelty and violence. He envisioned a new world as a place where people of different cultures could live together in amity and concord. This became his grand design for North America.

Champlain was not a solitary dreamer. He moved within several circles of French humanists during the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries. They are neglected figures of much importance in the history of ideas —bridge-figures who inherited the Renaissance and inspired the Enlightenment. They were not of one mind, but they had large purposes in common. One group of French humanists centered on the person of Henri IV and were guided by his great example. Another was an American circle in Paris who never crossed the Atlantic but were inspired by the idea of the new world. In a third group were many French humanists who came to North America with Champlain—men such as the sieur de Mons and the sieur de Razilly. In the beginning they were his leaders. By the end he became theirs.
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  #54  
Old 10 Sep 17, 16:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... because France had just experienced years of brutal religious warfare, and had come to an accommodation, all embodied in the figure of Samuel de Champlain, the Father of New France. As explained by Pulitzer Prize winning historian David Hackett Fischer in his book "Champlain's Dream":
very interesting quote.....I think it shows that there are some good people out there instead of the ''popular'', captivating ''evil''/bad men--that are greedy/etc
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  #55  
Old 10 Sep 17, 17:50
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Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
The answer is in the question : Because.
No...the correct answer is that they were not.
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Old 11 Sep 17, 11:14
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Great moments in history: The Pilgrim Fathers land in the New World!

"Thank God that voyage is over, I was puking my guts up all the way across the friggin Atlantic! Okay people, break out the guns and let's start civilising Geronimo or whatever his bloody name is, we'll be running the place inside 6 months if he's the best they've got around here!"
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Old 11 Sep 17, 12:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
well, the French wanted trade, more than to take over.....
did they want to ''civilize'' more than trade, help ,and/or convert to Christianity?
obviously the European technology was more advanced....
That dude has dread locks!!!!! Cultural appropriation. The rings in the nose would still look good.
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  #58  
Old 11 Sep 17, 12:53
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Great moments in history: The Pilgrim Fathers land in the New World!

"Thank God that voyage is over, I was puking my guts up all the way across the friggin Atlantic! Okay people, break out the guns and let's start civilising Geronimo or whatever his bloody name is, we'll be running the place inside 6 months if he's the best they've got around here!"
And they landed in the wrong place. They were aiming for Virginia...
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Old 11 Sep 17, 18:41
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The Empire builders Islam and Christianity were admired by the Founders and those whom the Founders admired such as John Locke.

The famous phrase of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" directly borrowed from Locke's Second Treatise and represents perhaps one of the most noticeable influences on the origins of American political thought. This and many other Lockean ideas were eventually incorporated into the American Constitution and into the fabric of American society.

Adversaries of Locke, such as John Edwards (1637-1716), an ordained deacon and English Calvinistic divine, accused Locke of being a “Mohemetan” because Locke’s theological insights, moral philosophy, and political outlook resembled Islamic teachings.


http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/node/18
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Old 12 Sep 17, 11:16
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
The Empire builders Islam and Christianity were admired by the Founders and those whom the Founders admired such as John Locke.

The famous phrase of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" directly borrowed from Locke's Second Treatise and represents perhaps one of the most noticeable influences on the origins of American political thought. This and many other Lockean ideas were eventually incorporated into the American Constitution and into the fabric of American society.

Adversaries of Locke, such as John Edwards (1637-1716), an ordained deacon and English Calvinistic divine, accused Locke of being a “Mohemetan” because Locke’s theological insights, moral philosophy, and political outlook resembled Islamic teachings.


http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/node/18
Could you please show a reference that the Founders admired the Moslem conquerers in the Middle East and Africa?

Further, the idea that Locke's ideas 'resembled Islamic teachings' is interesting. Perhaps you could give examples?

Locke was a supporter of the social contract, the consent of the governed, the state of nature; and the natural rights of life, liberty and property. He was one of the philosophers that certainly did influence the Founders, but he was not the only one. The ideas of Montesquieu, Rosseau, and other of the philosophes certainly influenced the Founders, as did a look back to ancient Rome.

The Founders were children of the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, and they looked to their philosophical antecedents for examples on how to govern and to justify rebelling against Great Britain.
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