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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #31  
Old 09 Feb 17, 18:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
I know that some of the Conquistadors were going on robbing and committing other sorts of crimes in the New world...this is documented. You can see though going by the documented facts that it was the Missionaries who saved the day. Crime is pretty much a part of every society, including that of the Spanish Conquistadors. Considering the time period....the Spanish Conquistadors were no more violent or non violent then any other group. Additionally the natives themselves were in awe of, and in many cases took up friendships of some level with their Conquistador counterpart.
"Saved the day" No they contributed to the subjugation of the natives on an entirely different level than the Conquistadors.

The Natives were in Awe of them due to their own history and lore. They believed them (at first) to be the return of their God Quetzalcoatl/Viracocha and his entourage. The Spaniards took full advantage of this mistake.

There is nothing, not
one
damn
thing

that is laudable about the intentions or actions of the Conquistadors in the New World. Any attempts to colour them otherwise is disingenuous at best.
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  #32  
Old 09 Feb 17, 19:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America
...did the missionaries/religion help?
...did any indigenous people want European religion?
...would they have been better off without the missionaries?
...I have almost no knowledge on the subject and was just curious after seeing the movie The Missionary.....as always it says ''based'' on a true stroy--but that is almost never the case
It's a good question and well put. It doesn't deserve the direction someone is trying to take it.
North American (US) Protestant missionary work varied by era and location. It's a pretty complex topic. Is there a particular area (or areas) that piqued your interest? Glad to help if I can.
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  #33  
Old 09 Feb 17, 19:13
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Originally Posted by Arthwys View Post
N



No, to the eyes of the Europeans they were not nice at all. Yet it was the beliefs of these people, and the missionaries, in their arrogance decided to save these benighted people from themselves. Something that the natives never asked of them.
Piffle I wasn't defending the missionaries but pointing out that things are seldom simple or binary. However there are some absolutes and any religion that is based on mass sacrifice of captives is inherently wrong
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  #34  
Old 10 Feb 17, 02:15
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Piffle I wasn't defending the missionaries but pointing out that things are seldom simple or binary. However there are some absolutes and any religion that is based on mass sacrifice of captives is inherently wrong
Christianity is based on human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism, thought that would be interesting for you.
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  #35  
Old 10 Feb 17, 09:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Piffle I wasn't defending the missionaries but pointing out that things are seldom simple or binary. However there are some absolutes and any religion that is based on mass sacrifice of captives is inherently wrong
You wish to speak of absolutes? about Religion? which absolutes would you like to explore? oh right, there are none, as there has always been an excuse for abhorrent behaviour amongst the truly invested/faithful.

Women were burned at the stake from the 15-1700's because they practiced healing and herbaism, and had different ideas about spirituality. Killed to protect 'mother church'

If Jesus actually saw what has been done in his name over the last almost 2000 years he would weep.

At least the American Peoples had the belief that the sacrifices they performed were to try and prolong the existence of the sun and therefore life on earth.

Were they correct in that belief? there is no scientific proof that says those acts did anything more than reduce populations and make big business for the artisans making obsidian knives. But it was what they believed. And in the context of their world and history who is to blame them?

Buddhist monks in Tibet and Nepal massacred pagans because they would not accept the teachings of Gautama Buddha... murdered them for not feeling the same way about life, the universe (and everything?) and spirituality... Buddhists! How messed up is that?

So no the Spanish monks don't get a pass because the Natives beliefs were 'worse' that thiers.
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  #36  
Old 10 Feb 17, 10:05
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Piffle I wasn't defending the missionaries but pointing out that things are seldom simple or binary. However there are some absolutes and any religion that is based on mass sacrifice of captives is inherently wrong
"Only the Sith deal in absolutes."
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  #37  
Old 10 Feb 17, 12:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
We see many systems of beliefs, or religions here on Earth. Religion has been around for ages...and we have seen how some societies have positively benefited from religion while others not so much.


You ask what benefits has Christianity brought to the Americas. Firstly the current Pope of the Catholic Church is from South America....we can thank the missionaries for that one...for bringing the beautiful Catholicism to the Americas it was made possible for a humble man from Argentina to become Pope of all Catholics worldwide.


You may ask for more. Well because of the Spanish Conquistadors...the Americas would go on to see an increase in hospitals and schools...hospitals and schools which would benefit whole communities of the Americas.
So it was all worthwhile,all of the slavery and terror brought to S America resulted in one single man being made pope of the very organisation that committed all of these atrocities.
There is nothing at all 'beautiful, about the catholic church or any other cult.

Hospitals and schools which are necessarily based on science are very definitely NOT a religious construct.
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  #38  
Old 10 Feb 17, 17:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
It's a good question and well put. It doesn't deserve the direction someone is trying to take it.
North American (US) Protestant missionary work varied by era and location. It's a pretty complex topic. Is there a particular area (or areas) that piqued your interest? Glad to help if I can.
....yes a 'very' complex --encompassing many peoples and much area
as stated the movie The Mission started it
...and I see the Guarani tribe was forced to defend themselves and suffered greatly, if I read correctly...however, this was not the Jesuits fault--directly? -so it was not Religion causing problems there, yes?

so we can try to zero in on the effects that were caused by religion

..I agree with Mountain Man on how the Natives did not ask the missionaries for help....
but the humans were spreading out/exploring/trading/etc...doing what humans do--some wanting, needing to help--others to steal--others wanting more or a profit/etc

thanks all replies

Last edited by Moulin; 10 Feb 17 at 17:26..
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  #39  
Old 10 Feb 17, 18:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
Christianity is based on human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism, thought that would be interesting for you.
The Catholic part of it certainly is, and the practices continue to this day.

Unfortunately, religion, like politics, has held back the development of Mankind by thousands and thousands of years by, among other things, insisting on maintaining the status quo and opposing scientific development.
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  #40  
Old 10 Feb 17, 20:33
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
The Catholic part of it certainly is, and the practices continue to this day.

Unfortunately, religion, like politics, has held back the development of Mankind by thousands and thousands of years by, among other things, insisting on maintaining the status quo and opposing scientific development.
do you have some examples? explanations?
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  #41  
Old 10 Feb 17, 21:03
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thanks for replies...
...after reading some posts, my next question would be
--how integrated and coordinated were the soldiers to the missionaries/religion ?
--how much power did the religious hierarchy wield in regards to colonization/over the soldiers/etc?

Last edited by Moulin; 10 Feb 17 at 21:11..
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Old 10 Feb 17, 22:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
....yes a 'very' complex --encompassing many peoples and much area
as stated the movie The Mission started it
...and I see the Guarani tribe was forced to defend themselves and suffered greatly, if I read correctly...however, this was not the Jesuits fault--directly? -so it was not Religion causing problems there, yes?

so we can try to zero in on the effects that were caused by religion

..I agree with Mountain Man on how the Natives did not ask the missionaries for help....
but the humans were spreading out/exploring/trading/etc...doing what humans do--some wanting, needing to help--others to steal--others wanting more or a profit/etc

thanks all replies
Top of my head. I can find the links if you're interested. With all respect to MM, there were times and areas in which the NA did request missionaries. Since I'm not sourcing this I'll deal with MT, ID, WA, OR.
Catholics: The "Black Robes" were well accepted in many areas. Big point being that they came without the soldiers. True, some were martyred, usually when they ran into an angry Shaman. The Priests began to modify their approach to better the Natives understanding. The "Ladder" was developed as a visual explanation of the role of Christ and Church Teachings as they led to heaven. Google "Cataldo Mission" in ID for perhaps the highest level of Native-Church relations. However, most missions in these areas consisted of a log church and living quarters. The Cayuse Nation consisting of several tribes in ID, WA, OR, hosted many priests. At one time, the Yakima River Basin leading to the Colombia, had 5 missions in a 90 mile stretch. Again, without the Conquistadors, there were areas of actual harmony. Probably also because there was little to no need of Indian Labor. (Cataldo excepted). The demise of the Papists in the area was primarily due to the flood of Protestant America moving West.

In 1831, 4 Nez Pierce came to St. Louis to ask for missionaries to come to the PNW. None of them made it home. Disease did them in. But they created a fervor among several Protestant Churches. For Google purposes, Jason Lee led the Methodist group to the Willamette Valley. They ended up working much harder on survival and trade to convert many indigenous souls. However, they sent off glowing reports of the Valley helping stoke Eastern ideas of Eden.
Marcus and Narcissa Whitman were Presbyterians from NY. They and their traveling companions, Henry and Eliza Spalding built missions on the Walla Walla and Clearwater rivers respectively. The successful Protestant missions created their own specific problems. Many became stopovers or settlements for the Westward moving Americans who shared their Protestant viewpoints. With the Whites came the diseases. Famously, the Whitman's and their workers were killed after a Small Pox outbreak was blamed on Dr. Whitman.
Overtime, many Protestant missions became the sites of Indian schools and Agencies. Many of these shut down with the advent of the BIA and "for profit" groups and individuals began to reap the rewards of Treaty Allocations.
Hope this helps. At least some topics to further your inquiry.
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  #43  
Old 11 Feb 17, 10:50
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Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
Top of my head. I can find the links if you're interested. With all respect to MM, there were times and areas in which the NA did request missionaries. Since I'm not sourcing this I'll deal with MT, ID, WA, OR.
Catholics: The "Black Robes" were well accepted in many areas. Big point being that they came without the soldiers. True, some were martyred, usually when they ran into an angry Shaman. The Priests began to modify their approach to better the Natives understanding. The "Ladder" was developed as a visual explanation of the role of Christ and Church Teachings as they led to heaven. Google "Cataldo Mission" in ID for perhaps the highest level of Native-Church relations. However, most missions in these areas consisted of a log church and living quarters. The Cayuse Nation consisting of several tribes in ID, WA, OR, hosted many priests. At one time, the Yakima River Basin leading to the Colombia, had 5 missions in a 90 mile stretch. Again, without the Conquistadors, there were areas of actual harmony. Probably also because there was little to no need of Indian Labor. (Cataldo excepted). The demise of the Papists in the area was primarily due to the flood of Protestant America moving West.

In 1831, 4 Nez Pierce came to St. Louis to ask for missionaries to come to the PNW. None of them made it home. Disease did them in. But they created a fervor among several Protestant Churches. For Google purposes, Jason Lee led the Methodist group to the Willamette Valley. They ended up working much harder on survival and trade to convert many indigenous souls. However, they sent off glowing reports of the Valley helping stoke Eastern ideas of Eden.
Marcus and Narcissa Whitman were Presbyterians from NY. They and their traveling companions, Henry and Eliza Spalding built missions on the Walla Walla and Clearwater rivers respectively. The successful Protestant missions created their own specific problems. Many became stopovers or settlements for the Westward moving Americans who shared their Protestant viewpoints. With the Whites came the diseases. Famously, the Whitman's and their workers were killed after a Small Pox outbreak was blamed on Dr. Whitman.
Overtime, many Protestant missions became the sites of Indian schools and Agencies. Many of these shut down with the advent of the BIA and "for profit" groups and individuals began to reap the rewards of Treaty Allocations.
Hope this helps. At least some topics to further your inquiry.
yes, thanks ...I'm getting the idea that it is like modern times, -- humans never change--meaning I see a comparison of modern cultures/races/groups/etc colliding/in conflict/interacting...
---.some good points --some bad.....some help--others don't/kill
---some radicals in the different groups....
---bigotry/stereotyping from all groups
---some hate, as usual
---missionaries, preachers, social workers trying to help the poor/etc
---your thoughts on other similarities ??
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  #44  
Old 18 Feb 17, 20:21
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The scale of civilization ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America
...did the missionaries/religion help?
...did any indigenous people want European religion?
...would they have been better off without the missionaries?
...I have almost no knowledge on the subject and was just curious after seeing the movie The Missionary.....as always it says ''based'' on a true stroy--but that is almost never the case
... vs. treatment of the "Indian" courtesy of Francis Parkman, an American of the times who usually viewed FN peoples with Chauvinistic disdain and didn't much care for French/Canadiens. I don't quote him often, but this piece is ubiquitous and is more right than wrong:

“Spanish civilization crushed the Indian; English civilization scorned and neglected him; French civilization embraced and cherished him.”

- Francis Parkman, “The Jesuits in North America in the Seventeenth Century.”, 1867
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Old 22 Feb 17, 13:28
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... vs. treatment of the "Indian" courtesy of Francis Parkman, an American of the times who usually viewed FN peoples with Chauvinistic disdain and didn't much care for French/Canadiens. I don't quote him often, but this piece is ubiquitous and is more right than wrong:

“Spanish civilization crushed the Indian; English civilization scorned and neglected him; French civilization embraced and cherished him.”

- Francis Parkman, “The Jesuits in North America in the Seventeenth Century.”, 1867
This is what I can of see as well but not always especially during the time period that Frontenac was replaced. His return was too little to late for New France as Daniel Duluth could see the writing on the wall but it did post pone the best before date a little...
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