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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #16  
Old 08 Feb 17, 12:14
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Yes Christianity brought immense benefits to the world....to Africa, South America and North America for example...


Contrary to the viewpoint that the Spanish were all bloodthirsty criminals....I have shown here on ACG documented fact that there were positive relations between Catholic Spaniards and the locals of the Americas. Ill alawys stand by Hernan Cortes....but the jury is still out for me on Columbus.
Would that include the ones that demanded a ounce of gold a month or the local would be killed?
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Old 08 Feb 17, 13:14
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Would that include the ones that demanded a ounce of gold a month or the local would be killed?
... they were doing the Lord's work, sending the meek to meet God.
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  #18  
Old 08 Feb 17, 13:22
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... they were doing the Lord's work, sending the meek to meet God.
Yeah, that BS again.
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  #19  
Old 09 Feb 17, 10:50
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Would that include the ones that demanded a ounce of gold a month or the local would be killed?
Seems your response is predetermined. I'm on your side...leave those types of comments for ISIL and KKK type mindsets..

Our generation is not the best...in a # of ways the Spanish Conquistadors were better people then you and I....it goes both ways though.
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  #20  
Old 09 Feb 17, 11:26
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... they were doing the Lord's work, sending the meek to meet God.
Are you saying those natives were all innocent little angels and the Spanish were criminals...if so thats the same thing as painting a picture that the Spanish were angels while the natives were the criminals. Seriously, nobody itt is saying anything that warrants your response^ It would be one thing if some Christian came into this thread suggesting that we bring back the inquisition...and nobody is doing this. Nothing wrong with praising the Conquistadors and their positive effects on the natives.
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Old 09 Feb 17, 12:18
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Seems your response is predetermined. I'm on your side...leave those types of comments for ISIL and KKK type mindsets..

Our generation is not the best...in a # of ways the Spanish Conquistadors were better people then you and I....it goes both ways though.
Apologetics noted.
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Old 09 Feb 17, 12:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Yes Christianity brought immense benefits to the world....to Africa, South America and North America for example...


Contrary to the viewpoint that the Spanish were all bloodthirsty criminals....I have shown here on ACG documented fact that there were positive relations between Catholic Spaniards and the locals of the Americas. Ill alawys stand by Hernan Cortes....but the jury is still out for me on Columbus.
You can't make such over arching declarations without being challenged Jack.
Which 'immense benefits' are we talking about here or are you simply assuming that their conversion led to the world being as it is now?

I cannot see how any religion has ever brought any benefit large or small to anyone at any time in history, unless you include the small stone age daughter lulled into sleep by her mother telling her that that booming in the sky is simply the skygod Cloudface practicing his drums.

Of course there's a down side too because the daughter is also told that if she doesn't behave the firegod of the smoky mountain will burn her up.

Stone age stick and carrot,and so it started as it meant to carry on.
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  #23  
Old 09 Feb 17, 12:53
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Yes Christianity brought immense benefits to the world....to Africa, South America and North America for example...


Contrary to the viewpoint that the Spanish were all bloodthirsty criminals....I have shown here on ACG documented fact that there were positive relations between Catholic Spaniards and the locals of the Americas. Ill alawys stand by Hernan Cortes....but the jury is still out for me on Columbus.
The Conquistadors, under their various commanders (Cortes, and Pizarro included) brought devastation and upheaval to the native peoples of Central and South America. Disease, massacres, theft, and rape were their main contributions to the inhabitants of these lands. And all for Gold and conquest. Not something so noble as 'God'

The Spanish Missionaries who followed close behind greatly contributed to the destruction of their cultures and the fragmentation, and in many cases utter loss of their histories, save those few monks who tried to record what they could for posterity in a race against increasing depredations and time.

The Conquistadors were soldiers and mercenaries. The natives only crimes were to be where they were, when they were, and to have what the soldiers wanted: Gold and silver.
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  #24  
Old 09 Feb 17, 13:11
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Originally Posted by Arthwys View Post

The Spanish Missionaries who followed close behind greatly contributed to the destruction of their cultures and the fragmentation, and in many cases utter loss of their histories, save those few monks who tried to record what they could for posterity in a race against increasing depredations and time.
.
And yet they saved them from utter destruction - but at the terrible price of other people's enslavement. The Spanish were using the indigenous peoples in the silver and gold mines and literally working them to death. The missionaries who had had some success converting them were shocked and managed to persuade the Spanish crown to order their use as slaves to halt - by suggesting that African slaves, readily available for trade goods from Arabic slave traders who ran the internal African slave trade, would be better for the task - and started the transatlantic slave trade.

The religions of central America were not nice involving mass sacrifices of captives and wars to acquire those captives
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Old 09 Feb 17, 16:43
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And yet they saved them from utter destruction - but at the terrible price of other people's enslavement. The Spanish were using the indigenous peoples in the silver and gold mines and literally working them to death. The missionaries who had had some success converting them were shocked and managed to persuade the Spanish crown to order their use as slaves to halt - by suggesting that African slaves, readily available for trade goods from Arabic slave traders who ran the internal African slave trade, would be better for the task - and started the transatlantic slave trade.
None of that is favourable to the Missionaries. In fact you help make my point... saving the indigenous people from extinction at the cost of everything they knew and loved, their language, beliefs and history does not excuse them, not even close.

Additionally they get bonus douchebags-of-history points for being instrumental in the genesis of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten about that.

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The religions of central America were not nice involving mass sacrifices of captives and wars to acquire those captives
No, to the eyes of the Europeans they were not nice at all. Yet it was the beliefs of these people, and the missionaries, in their arrogance decided to save these benighted people from themselves. Something that the natives never asked of them.

European religions and peoples were just as barbaric for even less reason throughout their history. Hell, Christianity was just as barbaric in it's own way, to it's own faithful during this time period, and even more barbaric to those non-christians that dared to believe otherwise. And the "Enlightenment" of the Christian religion didn't bode well for any non-Europeans that encountered it.

So you've not provided anything exculpatory for the Spaniards, either soldier or priest.
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Old 09 Feb 17, 16:50
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It depends on which time period your talking about.

If your asking about the Spanish ones, it was a terrible time for the locals.

If your asking about modern times its a great thing because they really help the people.
Do they? Did anyone specifically ask for help? Missionaries are there solely out of the mistaken belief that local peoples are somehow "better off" after they have been converted to a religion other than their own, and there is absolutely no evidence to support this culturally, and a lot of evidence to show that loss of cultural identity ruins a civilization very quickly.

Missionaries like to believe that they are dong good, but they are hopelessly biased in their estimates, and oddly enough, they object to being converted themselves.
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Old 09 Feb 17, 17:12
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You can't make such over arching declarations without being challenged Jack.
Which 'immense benefits' are we talking about here or are you simply assuming that their conversion led to the world being as it is now?

I cannot see how any religion has ever brought any benefit large or small to anyone at any time in history, unless you include the small stone age daughter lulled into sleep by her mother telling her that that booming in the sky is simply the skygod Cloudface practicing his drums.

Of course there's a down side too because the daughter is also told that if she doesn't behave the firegod of the smoky mountain will burn her up.

Stone age stick and carrot,and so it started as it meant to carry on.
We see many systems of beliefs, or religions here on Earth. Religion has been around for ages...and we have seen how some societies have positively benefited from religion while others not so much.


You ask what benefits has Christianity brought to the Americas. Firstly the current Pope of the Catholic Church is from South America....we can thank the missionaries for that one...for bringing the beautiful Catholicism to the Americas it was made possible for a humble man from Argentina to become Pope of all Catholics worldwide.


You may ask for more. Well because of the Spanish Conquistadors...the Americas would go on to see an increase in hospitals and schools...hospitals and schools which would benefit whole communities of the Americas.
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  #28  
Old 09 Feb 17, 17:16
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I will be the first to say that not all Spaniards conducted themselves as good Christians.... but certainly Antonio de Montesinos was a man of faith and did what he could to help the natives,


Antonio de Montesinos: "Christmas Eve Sermon of 1511" on Just Treatment of Indians

January 1, 1511
Tell me, by what right or justice do you hold these Indians in such cruel and horrible slavery? By what right do you wage such detestable wars on these people who lived mildly and peacefully in their own lands, where you have consumed infinite numbers of them with unheard of murders and desolations? Why do you so greatly oppress and fatigue them, not giving them enough to eat or caring for them when they fall ill from excessive labors, so that they die or rather are slain by you, so that you may extract and acquire gold every day? And what care do you take that they receive religious instruction and come to know their God and creator, or that they be baptized, hear mass, or observe holidays and Sundays? Are they not men? Do they not have rational souls? Are you not bound to love them as you love yourselves? How can you lie in such profound and lethargic slumber? Be sure that in your present state you can no more be saved than the Moors or Turks who do not have and do not want the faith of Jesus Christ.


https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu...ent-of-indians

Antonio de Montesinos (? - 1545) was a Spanish Dominican Friar, one of the first in the New World. He is best remembered for a scathing sermon delivered on December 4, 1511, in which he delivered a blistering attack on the colonists, who had enslaved the people of the Caribbean. For his efforts, he was run out of Hispaniola, but he and his fellow Dominicans were eventually able to convince the King of the moral correctness of their point of view, thus paving the way for later laws which protected native rights in Spanish lands.

http://latinamericanhistory.about.co...Montesinos.htm
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Old 09 Feb 17, 17:51
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Originally Posted by Arthwys View Post
The Conquistadors, under their various commanders (Cortes, and Pizarro included) brought devastation and upheaval to the native peoples of Central and South America. Disease, massacres, theft, and rape were their main contributions to the inhabitants of these lands. And all for Gold and conquest. Not something so noble as 'God'

The Spanish Missionaries who followed close behind greatly contributed to the destruction of their cultures and the fragmentation, and in many cases utter loss of their histories, save those few monks who tried to record what they could for posterity in a race against increasing depredations and time.

The Conquistadors were soldiers and mercenaries. The natives only crimes were to be where they were, when they were, and to have what the soldiers wanted: Gold and silver.
I know that some of the Conquistadors were going on robbing and committing other sorts of crimes in the New world...this is documented. You can see though going by the documented facts that it was the Missionaries who saved the day. Crime is pretty much a part of every society, including that of the Spanish Conquistadors. Considering the time period....the Spanish Conquistadors were no more violent or non violent then any other group. Additionally the natives themselves were in awe of, and in many cases took up friendships of some level with their Conquistador counterpart.

Legacy

Although Montesinos led a long life in which he continually struggled for better conditions for New World natives, he will forever be known mostly for that one blistering sermon delivered in 1511. It was his courage in speaking out what many had been silently thinking that changed the course of indigenous rights in the Spanish territories. His sermon ignited a fierce debate over native rights, identity and nature that was still raging one hundred years later.

In the audience that day was Bartolomé de Las Casas, himself a slaveholder at the time. The words of Montesinos were a revelation to him, and by 1514 he had divested himself of all of his slaves, believing that he would not go to heaven if he kept them. Las Casas eventually went on to become the great Defender of the Indians, and did more than any man to ensure their fair treatment.


http://latinamericanhistory.about.co...ntesinos_2.htm
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Old 09 Feb 17, 17:56
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And yet they saved them from utter destruction - but at the terrible price of other people's enslavement. The Spanish were using the indigenous peoples in the silver and gold mines and literally working them to death. The missionaries who had had some success converting them were shocked and managed to persuade the Spanish crown to order their use as slaves to halt - by suggesting that African slaves, readily available for trade goods from Arabic slave traders who ran the internal African slave trade, would be better for the task - and started the transatlantic slave trade.

The religions of central America were not nice involving mass sacrifices of captives and wars to acquire those captives
Of course this was rejected by leading Missionaries.
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