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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #226  
Old 24 Sep 17, 14:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
Kevin, the Algonquians were primarily hunter gatherers, but the Iroquoians were agrarian, lived in longhouses within elaborate stockades, males traveling to and from hunting grounds some distance away. They were quite urban in that regard, moving the settlement only when the soil played out.

The Wendat/Huron Mantle site wasn't far from me, some 1,500-2,000 inhabitants in its pre-contact, trade center heyday; 95 longhouses on 9 acres, surrounded by palisades. A pre-columbian iron axehead was found there, source was determined to be Basque, probably obtained in trade from fishermen on the Atlantic coast. There's more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle...estral_Village

"An 'Indiana Jones' moment: Cosmopolitan village dug up. Big, complex 'New York City' of 500 years ago uncovered by archaeologists in Canada,"
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48135934/n.../#.Wcf422hSzIU


Here's the 1300 page final report on the salvage excavation of the site:
http://asiheritage.ca/wp-content/upl...nal-Report.pdf

"Curse Of The Axe Rewriting American History Documentary"
Agree completely.

My only problem was with the term 'urban' which is more modern and doesn't apply to the Woodland Indians.

It would apply, however, to the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, and perhaps to the Pueblos of the American Southwest.
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  #227  
Old 24 Sep 17, 16:16
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Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
There is plenty to debate regarding Biblical historicity but the "here's a contradiction, the whole thing must be rubbish" argument is not exactly the strongest leg for skeptics to stand on.
A reasonable enough observation, which might be why I, for one, didn't offer that argument.

And that's the Gospel truth!
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  #228  
Old 24 Sep 17, 16:24
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A reasonable enough observation, which might be why I, for one, didn't offer that argument.

And that's the Gospel truth!
Adults with imaginary friends should be quite enough.

But we have to consider that the purported Jesus didn't have a message that your God thought was important.
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  #229  
Old 24 Sep 17, 17:23
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I've seen all the so-called proofs from outside the bible and they don't fly.

But I do like that you're not claiming divinity, which dumbs your claim down to "cool stuff some dude said."
Mainstream academia disagrees with you. Many religious texts speak of historical personalities. You don't have to believe in religion to believe in history.
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  #230  
Old 24 Sep 17, 17:29
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Are you saying, then, that the Indians that were encountered by John White and the other Englishmen had degenerated because of disease?

Who was there before White and the other colonists?
The Spanish got into North America before anyone else did and the disease they brought traveled even further.
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  #231  
Old 24 Sep 17, 18:12
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Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
The Spanish got into North America before anyone else did and the disease they brought traveled even further.
That is true to a point. What were the estimates of the Indian population of North America before Columbus and then 100 years later?

I have found that estimates vary as do the casualties because of disease, etc.

And the key term is 'estimates.'
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  #232  
Old 24 Sep 17, 18:46
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Adults with imaginary friends should be quite enough.

But we have to consider that the purported Jesus didn't have a message that your God thought was important.

his God....?
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  #233  
Old 24 Sep 17, 18:59
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
That is true to a point. What were the estimates of the Indian population of North America before Columbus and then 100 years later?

I have found that estimates vary as do the casualties because of disease, etc.

And the key term is 'estimates.'
That is true. I dug around for figures and got conflicting reports. But I think that given what we do know about Cahokia and the Anasazi to name a few that it is a safe bet that all Native American cultures were capable of and did develop urban centers. They may not have entirely resembled western urban centers but would be areas of high population density and commerce hubs. And given what the Spanish recorded when they observed how native people handled smallpox (and as we cross reference how Spanish and other European colonists handled regional ailments) I think a good case made that native civilizations were much larger in the pre Colombian era and can trace disease as a big reason for why they shrank hard and fast.
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  #234  
Old 24 Sep 17, 19:27
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Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
That is true. I dug around for figures and got conflicting reports. But I think that given what we do know about Cahokia and the Anasazi to name a few that it is a safe bet that all Native American cultures were capable of and did develop urban centers. They may not have entirely resembled western urban centers but would be areas of high population density and commerce hubs. And given what the Spanish recorded when they observed how native people handled smallpox (and as we cross reference how Spanish and other European colonists handled regional ailments) I think a good case made that native civilizations were much larger in the pre Colombian era and can trace disease as a big reason for why they shrank hard and fast.
You haven't answered the question that was put.

What were the estimates of the North American Indian population. And to further the question, the estimates of the eastern Woodland Indians' population would be helpful.

And where were the 'urban centers' among the Eastern Woodland Indians?
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  #235  
Old 24 Sep 17, 19:37
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
You haven't answered the question that was put.

What were the estimates of the North American Indian population. And to further the question, the estimates of the eastern Woodland Indians' population would be helpful.

And where were the 'urban centers' among the Eastern Woodland Indians?
I know there are estimates of the NA populations...but wouldn't it be safe to say those estimates could be significantly off? before and during the whites, the tribes fought and moved...some separating, some intermixing...?
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  #236  
Old 24 Sep 17, 19:40
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I know there are estimates of the NA populations...but wouldn't it be safe to say those estimates could be significantly off? before and during the whites, the tribes fought and moved...some separating, some intermixing...?
That's why they are called 'estimates.'
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  #237  
Old 25 Sep 17, 09:31
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That's why they are called 'estimates.'
roger--yes
in one link it says it estimates the Iroquois population in 1600 at around 5500
in that year it seems like a a huge guess instead of an estimate? ...they didn't have census takers
the Iroquois didn't have written ''records''?
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  #238  
Old 25 Sep 17, 14:00
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Some heathen Indian tribes used to sling their old and infirm out to die of cold and starvation (top pic) because they regarded them as useless mouths to feed, but English Lord John Morgan in 'A Man Called Horse' (bottom pic) tells his adopted mother- "Don't worry luv, I'll be your son and won't let that happen to youi"

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  #239  
Old 25 Sep 17, 15:32
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Garbage, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Some heathen Indian tribes used to sling their old and infirm out to die of cold and starvation (top pic) because they regarded them as useless mouths to feed, but English Lord John Morgan in 'A Man Called Horse' (bottom pic) tells his adopted mother- "Don't worry luv, I'll be your son and won't let that happen to youi"

... in terms of authenticity, it's a vision of an English aristocrat captured by the Sioux, of a Jewish director from Boston, who didn't even bother to read the short story the movie was based upon. The story itself is a work of fiction by Dorothy M. Johnson, an award winning author of western fiction and non-fiction. It's about a Bostonian captured by the Crow; there are no "old and infirm out to die of cold and starvation", or Sun Dance ceremony in it. The former movie scene had Sioux up in arms, a Sioux resident historian, who served as the movie's technical consultant was only placated when the director told him it was primarily a work of entertainment. Native Canadian singer Buffy Sainte Marie was approached to play the female lead (Running Deer), she declined and later said, "Even the so-called authentic movies like A Man Called Horse — that's the whitest of movies I've ever seen".
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  #240  
Old 26 Sep 17, 02:31
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...Native Canadian singer Buffy Sainte Marie was approached to play the female lead (Running Deer), she declined and later said, "Even the so-called authentic movies like A Man Called Horse — that's the whitest of movies I've ever seen".
In these pol-correct times of course there are people who don't like it when films show true reality..
It's an undisputed fact that some Indian tribes banished members for various reasons, even Indian websites like this one admit it-

"When a tribal member was banished, it amounted to a death sentence; survival depended on support from the tribe working together. On one’s own, a person was exposed to the elements, wild life and warring, rival tribes."
https://indiancountrymedianetwork.co...al-banishment/


PS- We know not all indians were heathen savages, for example Tonto and the Lone Ranger were great mates, and in fact Tonto was one of my boyhood heroes, I remember in one episode he was trapped in quicksand and slowly sinking, but he just calmly stayed still and silent instead of panicking, waiting for the LR to arrive and rescue him.
I swore then that if ever I was trapped in quicksand I'd be like him and stay kool..

Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 26 Sep 17 at 02:39..
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