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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Warfare by Other Means

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Warfare by Other Means Economics, demographics, cultural, technological, and other factors that have affected the course of history.

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  #16  
Old 30 Jan 17, 12:45
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Bah, it proved that the press could defeat the military.

And you seriously want a list of countries that didn't go communist?
I want to know what the US got out of it--mostly economically/financially/etc

Cold War--was it worth it?

Last edited by Moulin; 30 Jan 17 at 13:16..
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  #17  
Old 30 Jan 17, 13:16
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
I want to know what the US got out of it--mostly economically/financially/etc
Then I suggest you study US history.
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  #18  
Old 30 Jan 17, 13:34
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Then I suggest you study US history.
obviously Vietnam was a fiasco and total failure
the US wasted billions $ ..actually we got a little inflation, no?

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The Vietnam War damaged the U.S. economy severely. The U.S. had poured some $168 billion into the war, but the real cost of the conflict was its impact on the economy.
...http://thevietnamwar.info/how-vietna...ffect-america/

Bay of Pigs total failure and waste of millions $
etc etc
unless you have economic figures for the Cold War ?

Iran Contra failure -
...
...looking at the Vietnam totals, I don't think it evens out on the black side

....most importantly---the lives lost far outweigh anything else
..
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  #19  
Old 30 Jan 17, 14:01
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Your opinion is noted.
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  #20  
Old 31 Jan 17, 00:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
I want to know what the US got out of it--mostly economically/financially/etc

Cold War--was it worth it?
Countries like people have to make decisions; When they come to a fork in the road they have to choose which path to take. You can't go down both paths.........so as in a persons life........you will never know the consequences of taking the "other path"
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Old 31 Jan 17, 00:28
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The superpowers that were totalitarian states where Marxism-Leninism had come to power through violent revolution or revolutionary war and espousing world revolution as an ideological tenet or doctrine were a real and positive military threat to the Western world during the Cold War, especially in the immediate 2-decade post-war period from the Second World War, i.e. 1945-65, and had to be confronted wherever it was aggressively seeking its expansion by force of arms. Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, and lesser dictators such as the late, great Kim Il-sung and that great example of a Stalinist ideologue and dictator of yesteryear, Albania's own Enver Hoxha (No revisionist wimp was he! I thought the world of Enver!), were exceedingly confrontational towards the U.S.-led West in the post-war period and sought its destruction.

The East-West ideological conflict was not just some kind of wraith or a figment of the Western world's imagination but an obviously concrete and very real threat to the world's peace and security. Marxism-Leninism/Communism was not economically viable in the long term and would have certainly collapsed sooner or later under the weight of its own inherent economic unsoundness and systemic flaws, but it had to be confronted when and where it was still a viable and potent threat before its inevitable decline as a moribund economic and political system had set in.
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Last edited by Redzen; 31 Jan 17 at 00:45..
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  #22  
Old 31 Jan 17, 06:56
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Originally Posted by Redzen View Post
The superpowers that were totalitarian states where Marxism-Leninism had come to power through violent revolution or revolutionary war and espousing world revolution as an ideological tenet or doctrine were a real and positive military threat to the Western world during the Cold War, especially in the immediate 2-decade post-war period from the Second World War, i.e. 1945-65, and had to be confronted wherever it was aggressively seeking its expansion by force of arms. Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, and lesser dictators such as the late, great Kim Il-sung and that great example of a Stalinist ideologue and dictator of yesteryear, Albania's own Enver Hoxha (No revisionist wimp was he! I thought the world of Enver!), were exceedingly confrontational towards the U.S.-led West in the post-war period and sought its destruction.

The East-West ideological conflict was not just some kind of wraith or a figment of the Western world's imagination but an obviously concrete and very real threat to the world's peace and security. Marxism-Leninism/Communism was not economically viable in the long term and would have certainly collapsed sooner or later under the weight of its own inherent economic unsoundness and systemic flaws, but it had to be confronted when and where it was still a viable and potent threat before its inevitable decline as a moribund economic and political system had set in.
...was there a real, significant threat to the US economy?
...there wasn't as global a market back then?
the US economy was more self sustaining?
thanks all replies
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  #23  
Old 31 Jan 17, 07:03
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Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
Countries like people have to make decisions; When they come to a fork in the road they have to choose which path to take. You can't go down both paths.........so as in a persons life........you will never know the consequences of taking the "other path"
....it seems like we have/had government workers just trying to find the most idiotic ways to waste millions $--also lives
..choosing war should be the last option--if necessary at all....yes?
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  #24  
Old 31 Jan 17, 10:47
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
....it seems like we have/had government workers just trying to find the most idiotic ways to waste millions $--also lives
..choosing war should be the last option--if necessary at all....yes?
seems like........
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  #25  
Old 31 Jan 17, 11:59
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Damn, I'm back in college.
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  #26  
Old 02 Feb 17, 07:06
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Damn, I'm back in college.
like Berkeley? those people are out of control...
you didn't do any rioting, did you?
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  #27  
Old 02 Feb 17, 07:12
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like Berkeley? those people are out of control...
you didn't do any rioting, did you?
Purdue. And I was on the Mounties' side.
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  #28  
Old 04 Feb 17, 00:20
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...we did not want Cambodia to be taken over by the Khmer Rouge
we spent big $ for that
No, the Khmers Rouges came late to the Party, and we spent a pittance. Our main interest in Cambodia was to find some leader capable of expelling the Vietnamese from the eastern reaches of the country. We were fighting a Vietnam War when we should have been fighting an Indochina War. That is, if we should have been fighting a war at all.

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but Nam demonstrated that a little, poor, country could defeat the US
Only if they have a lot of help in the U.S., and are backed by major powers the U.S. does not want to go to war with, sharing a border with one of them.

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Iran-Shah demonstrated that the US would back an uncaring dictator..
You forgot to mention Nicaragua, Charlie Wilson's first war. OK, can you find any caring dictators on the other side? Robert Mugabe, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, the Kims of Korea? ANd, what are the attributes of a caring dictator? Maybe the Ayatollah? After all, he only wanted everyone to be as good a muslim as he was.
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  #29  
Old 04 Feb 17, 02:52
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The idea that the war is over troubles me. We break issues into little slices so we can digest them. To some extent I think it is a trap set by the amazing success of reductionist science. There is still no accepted self-consistent theory of quantum gravity. General relatively was an amazing breakthrough but it is incomplete. In fields where complex chaotic systems are studied such as biology the reductionist process has hardly begun to explain something as fundamental as consciousness. To some extent cultures are even more complex and certainly more chaotic than biological systems and breaking them down into slices can lead to misguided theories.

Human history can be viewed as one continuous war. Just as the second great war can be thought of as a continuation of the first the Vietnam war was a continuation of that war. Had Stalin not made a pack with Germany hoping for the complete destruction of liberal democracies the second world war may have been very different. To be sure the allies were hoping for the Germans to destroy communism in a similar "conspiracy" that makes Hitler something of a useful idiot in the struggle between liberal democracy and communism. Fascism was just a blip on the screen of this struggle of more permanent ideologies.

Ideologies themselves however can be seen just the clothing adopted by underlying cultures. Was Stalin and his bureaucrats really that much different than the tsar and his? We're the aims of Hitler in expanding German hegemony completely different than those of the Germans who started WWI?

When colonies of ants come into close contact they often go to war for living space. That is one element of culture wars in so far as cultures are organisms in competition. Ants of course do not have competing ideologies. Ideologies are more like a parasite that infect the individuals in a culture the way the Lancet Liver Fluke compels and want to climb to the top of a blade of grass to be eaten by a cow and complete the Flukes lifecycle.

In human history we can see how a change in the environment has transformed wars of conquest to ideological wars. That change in the environment is communication. Just as improvements in ships spread isolated contagious diseases around the world improvements in communication technologies especially wide spread literacy makes the spread of infectious ideologies easier. Certainly Christianity and Islam spread before widespread literacy but was largely internal to a general culture or by the sword.

In so far as Russia has an Eastern culture of hierarchical obligations similar in many ways to those of the orient, Islam and to a lesser extent continental Europe they made a better host for communism than the more radically individualist tradition of English speaking cultures. That cultural difference lays the foundation for the ideological conflict that has existed for at least since the French revolution and most likely mush longer with varying degrees of purity.

The real struggle in Vietnam was not between capitalism and communism but between individual and collective rights. The rights of European kings could be seen as a counter argument to this being a thousands of years old struggle but remember a kings rights were individual rights while in Eastern cultures the Emperor of China or the Tsar's rule was seen more as the obligations of a strong paternal figure.

The war in Vietnam never ended it goes on within the hearts and minds of almost every nation on earth. Wherever people have been parasitized by collectivist ideologies. Those who have a collectivist leaning will say the Vietnam war was a major defeat of selfish individualism while those who believe in individual liberty will see as a lost battle.

Everyone needs to step back and ask themselves if they are struggling for an ideology or to make the world a better place. Ideological purity cannot be a test of morality only individual character can answer that question.

Both capitalism and communism require superhuman character to function and thus never exist outside of an ideological framework. If you want either of these systems to work you would need to transform human nature. To the extent that socialism has become communism light it faces the same hurdle. The best example is the destruction of the family and the tribal warfare in inner cities brought on by the welfare state, that includes immigrant communities in Europe.

Humans have not evolved to function in groups larger than a tribe of a few dozen. That is why collectivism fails everywhere it is tried. Liberal democracies work when they displace the tribal instincts and replace it with even more fundamental instinct for individual reward. You can do all the moralizing you want but it will not alter instincts. A person that does not love themself will only have pathological empathy. A person who has much will give much if they have non pathological altruism and an understanding of human nature. The need for social institutions should be one of efficiency not a way to compensate for flaws in character.
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Old 04 Feb 17, 10:06
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Ideologies themselves however can be seen just the clothing adopted by underlying cultures. Was Stalin and his bureaucrats really that much different than the tsar and his? We're the aims of Hitler in expanding German hegemony completely different than those of the Germans who started WWI?
Wolfhnd, a good point, but why stop at WWI? It easily goes back to Bismarck and the Holy Roman Empire.

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The real struggle in Vietnam was not between capitalism and communism but between individual and collective rights.
Perhaps. North Vietnam was collectivist before and under the Trinhs, but it was also strongly hierarchical. The "South" (Center in the first two centuries of the split, the Saigon and the Mekong/Bassac regions were acquired from the 1700s on) were more individualistic, as befitted a frontier region.

Social position in the North was dependent upon family connections and one's placement in the triennial exams, which allowed entry into government service. In the Nguyen state's early period, foreign trade was an important element of their economy, and throughout their reign new lands were always opening up adjacent to the Highlands, or in the river valleys in Cham and Khmer territories. Cultural interactions with their neighbors, and an economy that valaued trade, resulted in Vietnamese whose outlooks differed from that of their Northern cousins.

Once the Nguyen state weakened, its greatest threat was not the Trinhs in the North, but dissatisfied subjects in their own territories. Small wonder then that the Tay Son rebellion, which ended the Nguyen (War) Lord period, was centered in western Binh Dinh province, and sparked by a Vietnamese family that had intermarried with the Bahnar.
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