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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Colonial Era

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American Colonial Era 1660-1763 The growth of North American colonies, often with a change in native & national control.

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  #31  
Old 08 Feb 17, 18:48
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Video of search of le Griffon

http://fox11online.com/news/local/gr...und-le-griffon
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Old 08 Feb 17, 19:01
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Re-enactment of le Griffon crew, with my friend Reid in red


http://interactives.krqe.com/gallery/7822/
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  #33  
Old 23 Feb 17, 15:05
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My old friend Reid Lewis, did a re-enactment of lasalle expedition in 1976 for the bicentenary of independance called Lasalle II, from Montreal to gulf of Mexico




I suppose what bothers me about Robert La Salle is that he didn't find the location of New Orlean's after being the first to Navigate the Mississippi to it's mouth.
It isn't like he didn't know the way he said he was going there but decided to land some 500 miles away in Corpus Christi, Texas.
In effect he lied taking King Louis XIV ships, crew & materials on a wild goose chase for Spanish Silver Mines in New Spain where the local Indians were not friendly to Pirates or anybody else who dared to land.
I could not for the life of me see Daniel Greysolon Sieur du Luhut doing a thing like this he said what he meant and did what he said he was an honest man.
What you can't take away from Robert La Salle is that he was a brave man and the first explorer to navigate to the mouth of the Mississippi River from the Great Lakes.
The Black Robe Father Louis Hennepin how ever takes the cake claiming to have found the Mouth of the Mississippi River 2 years prior to La Salle a claim he made only after his return to France.
This indeed would have been quite the feat considering he was a slave captured by the Sioux at the time.
It's a wonder he forgot to tell Daniel Greysolon Sieur du Lhut about his findings after he saved his fat from the fire after being enslaved by the Sioux.

The finding of Robert La Salle's Le Griffon is also quite the find with experts from France agreeing on the type of ship building materials on both La Belle & Le Griffon being identical.
The cold of the Great Lakes is an excellent preservative of old ship wreaks for divers.
There may be some French Regime Ship Wrecks here by Grand Portage, Minnesota, and Thunder Bay, Ontario.
Superior's First Ship Yard: http://www.ontarioplaques.com/Plaque..._Algoma13.html
Described on the Plaque: Denis, Sieur de la Ronde's first decked vessel on Lake Superior...
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  #34  
Old 23 Feb 17, 15:37
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Originally Posted by SmackUm View Post
I suppose what bothers me about Robert La Salle is that he didn't find the location of New Orlean's after being the first to Navigate the Mississippi to it's mouth.
It isn't like he didn't know the way he said he was going there but decided to land some 500 miles away in Corpus Christi, Texas.
In effect he lied taking King Louis XIV ships, crew & materials on a wild goose chase for Spanish Silver Mines in New Spain where the local Indians were not friendly to Pirates or anybody else who dared to land.
I could not for the life of me see Daniel Greysolon Sieur du Luhut doing a thing like this he said what he meant and did what he said he was an honest man.
What you can't take away from Robert La Salle is that he was a brave man and the first explorer to navigate to the mouth of the Mississippi River from the Great Lakes.
The Black Robe Father Louis Hennepin how ever takes the cake claiming to have found the Mouth of the Mississippi River 2 years prior to La Salle a claim he made only after his return to France.
This indeed would have been quite the feat considering he was a slave captured by the Sioux at the time.
It's a wonder he forgot to tell Daniel Greysolon Sieur du Lhut about his findings after he saved his fat from the fire after being enslaved by the Sioux.

The finding of Robert La Salle's Le Griffon is also quite the find with experts from France agreeing on the type of ship building materials on both La Belle & Le Griffon being identical.
The cold of the Great Lakes is an excellent preservative of old ship wreaks for divers.
There may be some French Regime Ship Wrecks here by Grand Portage, Minnesota, and Thunder Bay, Ontario.
Superior's First Ship Yard: http://www.ontarioplaques.com/Plaque..._Algoma13.html
Described on the Plaque: Denis, Sieur de la Ronde's first decked vessel on Lake Superior...
Many of the early explorers of all nationalities were chancers. Yes they were brave, yes they were bold, yes they were imaginative BUT essentially they were out for themselves and looting some gold and silver was more important than meeting their sovereign's (who were also chancers with a throne under their bum) wishes. Drake,Raleigh and Hawkins were cut from the same cloth as I suspect were Cartier and Champlain
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  #35  
Old 23 Feb 17, 16:00
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That map does not show the expedition reaching the Gulf. It stops well short in what is today, New Orleans. New Orleans was not even the first town in Louisiana. Natchitoches was started first, when Mobile was capital of Louisiana. The French founded New Orleans in the first habitable spot up the Mississippi they could find. They did this to keep the English off the Mississippi. There is a spot down from New Orleans on the Mississippi where a ship carrying settlers turned around and left after they were met and told there was a settlement just ahead with a French warship! It has been called "English Turn" ever since.

There were several routes to the Gulf from the lower Mississippi, but these were found after the local Indians told the French settlers they were there. The English landed troops down from New Orleans in 1815 by traveling up a small bayou and coming out at a small plantation. The local landowner used it to avoid paying customs fees on goods. The Islenos (Spanish Fishermen living along the Gulf Coast) knew it was there as well. This bayou did not quite reach the river, but it was close enough.

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  #36  
Old 23 Feb 17, 16:02
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By the way, there was a portage route at what is now Chicago that led to the Mississippi. That is why a settlement was planted there.

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  #37  
Old 24 Feb 17, 13:29
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Many of the early explorers of all nationalities were chancers. Yes they were brave, yes they were bold, yes they were imaginative BUT essentially they were out for themselves and looting some gold and silver was more important than meeting their sovereign's (who were also chancers with a throne under their bum) wishes. Drake,Raleigh and Hawkins were cut from the same cloth as I suspect were Cartier and Champlain
True enough many ships from the Fur Trade Era lie at the bottom of the falls @ Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario as a testament to this...
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Old 24 Feb 17, 13:39
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
That map does not show the expedition reaching the Gulf. It stops well short in what is today, New Orleans. New Orleans was not even the first town in Louisiana. Natchitoches was started first, when Mobile was capital of Louisiana. The French founded New Orleans in the first habitable spot up the Mississippi they could find. They did this to keep the English off the Mississippi. There is a spot down from New Orleans on the Mississippi where a ship carrying settlers turned around and left after they were met and told there was a settlement just ahead with a French warship! It has been called "English Turn" ever since.

There were several routes to the Gulf from the lower Mississippi, but these were found after the local Indians told the French settlers they were there. The English landed troops down from New Orleans in 1815 by traveling up a small bayou and coming out at a small plantation. The local landowner used it to avoid paying customs fees on goods. The Islenos (Spanish Fishermen living along the Gulf Coast) knew it was there as well. This bayou did not quite reach the river, but it was close enough.

Pruitt
Thanks.. I've been as far south as Natchez, Mississippi visited a plantation house there...
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Old 24 Feb 17, 14:04
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By the way, there was a portage route at what is now Chicago that led to the Mississippi. That is why a settlement was planted there.

Pruitt
The Chicago Portage is one of the easiest portages in all of North America the only difficulty in an otherwise relatively easy canoe trip down the Mississippi River.
The first substantial water falls on the Mississippi River is Saint Anthony's Falls in Minneapolis Minnesota.
The size of the Mississippi has changed substantially by the Giant Diversion Projects of Long Lac & Ogoki which were carried out by the United States Army Corps of Engineers during WWII.
nipigonmuseumtheblogspot.ca/2017/02/a-diverting-experience-ogoki-html
www.greatlakeswaterwars.com/chapter6.htm
Cat trains where used to transport the freight during the winter.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...rain-1.3266376
My Uncle on my mom's side has a Mississippi Barge from Chicago he pulls it w/hoe on board with a medium class Ocean Salvage Tug to build break wall.
Using Fertilizer & diesel fuel to fill drill holes he use to shoot the last hole with a whiskey bottle full of gas & lit fuse from behind a tree.
This creates a shear of the diabase sill cliff face (Single Line Shear Surface Blast) similar to a 3 deep pattern 1,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,...
or Under Ground Butter Box out clock wise timed out shear pattern.
Most rivers like the Mississippi River and lakes like the Great lakes have changed quite significantly from their original form in North America.
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Old 24 Feb 17, 17:04
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Mark, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Many of the early explorers of all nationalities were chancers. Yes they were brave, yes they were bold, yes they were imaginative BUT essentially they were out for themselves and looting some gold and silver was more important than meeting their sovereign's (who were also chancers with a throne under their bum) wishes. Drake,Raleigh and Hawkins were cut from the same cloth as I suspect were Cartier and Champlain
... apart from being a soldier/mariner Champlain had little in common with Drake, Raleigh, Hawkins or even Cartier.

Champlain, like many of the other French of his class around the turn of the 16th/17th centuries, was a "Humanist", a bi-product of the Religious Wars; he was a favourite of, and reputed to be the bastard son of his sovereign, Henri IV. Prior to his explorations of the NE coast of NA he'd surreptitiously toured Spanish America; Mexico City, Havanna, San Juan, Cartagena, etc. Champlain was a spy who faced death if found out, he was absolutely appalled by what he saw, how the FN peoples were treated, he reported back to his "father" as he would throughout his own explorations. Champlain was a colonizer to his core, the "Father of New France", frustrated at times, but he was NOT a soldier of fortune.

The result:

"On May 24, 1633, two days after Champlain had returned to Quebec (as Lieutenant General of New France, de facto Governor), eighteen large canoes filled with Indians led by the Montagnais leader Capitanal came to visit him. Champlain met with them and made a speech through his interpreter, Olivier le Tardif. He reminded them of the alliance that he had made with their forbears in the first tabagie on St. Matthew’s Point exactly thirty years before. He recalled how he and Capitanal’s father had fought side by side against the Iroquois in battles where Capitanal’s father had been killed and Champlain wounded. Champlain told the Montagnais of his dream that their children might intermarry and live together as one people. Gesturing to the fort and settlement, he said:

'When that great house is built, our young men will marry your daughters, and henceforth we shall be one people.'

These words flowed from his heart, and the Indians were moved by his spirit."

- “Champlain’s Dream”, by Pulitzer Prize winning historian/author David Hackett Fischer

Fischer's source was "Relations des Jésuites de la Nouvelle-France", written by Father Paul Le Jeune (1591–1664), Champlain’s friend and the French Jesuit Superior of the missionaries in New France who was in attendance.


Can you even imagine anything like that coming out of the mouths or Drake, Raleigh, Hawkins, or their ilk???
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Old 25 Feb 17, 12:28
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... apart from being a soldier/mariner Champlain had little in common with Drake, Raleigh, Hawkins or even Cartier.

Champlain, like many of the other French of his class around the turn of the 16th/17th centuries, was a "Humanist", a bi-product of the Religious Wars; he was a favourite of, and reputed to be the bastard son of his sovereign, Henri IV. Prior to his explorations of the NE coast of NA he'd surreptitiously toured Spanish America; Mexico City, Havanna, San Juan, Cartagena, etc. Champlain was a spy who faced death if found out, he was absolutely appalled by what he saw, how the FN peoples were treated, he reported back to his "father" as he would throughout his own explorations. Champlain was a colonizer to his core, the "Father of New France", frustrated at times, but he was NOT a soldier of fortune.

The result:

"On May 24, 1633, two days after Champlain had returned to Quebec (as Lieutenant General of New France, de facto Governor), eighteen large canoes filled with Indians led by the Montagnais leader Capitanal came to visit him. Champlain met with them and made a speech through his interpreter, Olivier le Tardif. He reminded them of the alliance that he had made with their forbears in the first tabagie on St. Matthew’s Point exactly thirty years before. He recalled how he and Capitanal’s father had fought side by side against the Iroquois in battles where Capitanal’s father had been killed and Champlain wounded. Champlain told the Montagnais of his dream that their children might intermarry and live together as one people. Gesturing to the fort and settlement, he said:

'When that great house is built, our young men will marry your daughters, and henceforth we shall be one people.'

These words flowed from his heart, and the Indians were moved by his spirit."

- “Champlain’s Dream”, by Pulitzer Prize winning historian/author David Hackett Fischer

Fischer's source was "Relations des Jésuites de la Nouvelle-France", written by Father Paul Le Jeune (1591–1664), Champlain’s friend and the French Jesuit Superior of the missionaries in New France who was in attendance.


Can you even imagine anything like that coming out of the mouths or Drake, Raleigh, Hawkins, or their ilk???
I had read some place that Champlain had made the comment that if he bathed, shaved and dressed the Indians he could not tell the difference between them and his own men.
They sun burned like us and only after repeated exposure to the sun did their skin tan dark.
The name Red Skin came from the habit of rubbing bear fat, the soot from fires & pigments from the bark of the Alder Tree (Used to repel biting insects).
Native American Mosquito Repellent: http://homeguides.sfgate.com/native-...ent-76112.html
McKirdy's Special Fly Repellant was a Native American Insect Repellent knock off. http://www.repalfly.com/
I can't see that kind of tolerance anyplace but New France too bad Father Louis Hennepin was such a weasel.
He did make a nice map of North America though and he had a real love for the beauty of water falls in North America.
Some N/A Water Fall Comparisons...
Niagara Falls : https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagara_Falls
Vertical drop 165'
Saint Anthony Falls: http://www.mnopedia.org/multimedia/f...lls-st-anthony
Vertical drop: 50-60'
High Falls, Mn: http://www.northshorephotoart.com/gallery-one.html Vertical drop: 120'
Kakabeka Falls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakabeka_Falls
Vertical Drop: 130'

Last edited by SmackUm; 25 Feb 17 at 14:21.. Reason: add links
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Old 26 Feb 17, 16:48
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These French humanists, ...

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I had read some place that Champlain had made the comment that if he bathed, shaved and dressed the Indians he could not tell the difference between them and his own men.
They sun burned like us and only after repeated exposure to the sun did their skin tan dark.
The name Red Skin came from the habit of rubbing bear fat, the soot from fires & pigments from the bark of the Alder Tree (Used to repel biting insects).
Native American Mosquito Repellent: http://homeguides.sfgate.com/native-...ent-76112.html
McKirdy's Special Fly Repellant was a Native American Insect Repellent knock off. http://www.repalfly.com/
I can't see that kind of tolerance anyplace but New France too bad Father Louis Hennepin was such a weasel.
He did make a nice map of North America though and he had a real love for the beauty of water falls in North America.
Some N/A Water Fall Comparisons...
Niagara Falls : https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagara_Falls
Vertical drop 165'
Saint Anthony Falls: http://www.mnopedia.org/multimedia/f...lls-st-anthony
Vertical drop: 50-60'
High Falls, Mn: http://www.northshorephotoart.com/gallery-one.html Vertical drop: 120'
Kakabeka Falls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakabeka_Falls
Vertical Drop: 130'
... did not wish to make the Indians into a servile work force, or drive them from their land. They respected the humanity of the Indians even in their “sauvage state,” without “faith, or law, or authority,” i.e. "ni foi, ni loi, ni roi", as Champlain put it. Later, the enemy were often hard pressed to differentiate between Indien, and Canadien Milice, when serving together.


Olivier le Tardif, Champlain's favourite interpreter, was no Étienne Brûlé, he was an honourable man, he was also Jean Nicollet's brother-in-law and they shared the Seigneurie de Belleborne. He's also one of my lineal Great...Grandfathers. He's probably yours as well, I don't think I mentioned it, but Jean Guyon du Buisson is also my lineal Great...Grandfather, I'm descended through his daughter Marie, who married into the Belanger family.
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Old 27 Feb 17, 11:41
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... did not wish to make the Indians into a servile work force, or drive them from their land. They respected the humanity of the Indians even in their “sauvage state,” without “faith, or law, or authority,” i.e. "ni foi, ni loi, ni roi", as Champlain put it. Later, the enemy were often hard pressed to differentiate between Indien, and Canadien Milice, when serving together.


Olivier le Tardif, Champlain's favourite interpreter, was no Étienne Brûlé, he was an honourable man, he was also Jean Nicollet's brother-in-law and they shared the Seigneurie de Belleborne. He's also one of my lineal Great...Grandfathers. He's probably yours as well, I don't think I mentioned it, but Jean Guyon du Buisson is also my lineal Great...Grandfather, I'm descended through his daughter Marie, who married into the Belanger family.
I can see why when there were at one time so few people in New France most must be related one way or another.
I found a few of the King's Daughter's as well as soldiers in the Carignan Salieres Regiment.
I agree Etienne Brule could not read or write so his travels to the Minong Mine must be taken with a grain of salt.
But their were so few mines in North America during the Pre European Contact Period his description fits the Minong Mine, Isle Royal, Lake Superior Location. It's too bad he fell out of grace with Champlain & ended up in the soup pot we may have learned more about him today.
List of lost mines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lost_mines
A rock sniffer's paradise....

Last edited by SmackUm; 27 Feb 17 at 12:04.. Reason: add link
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Old 27 Feb 17, 15:53
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New Spain

Since Robert La Salle was interested in the Silver Mines of New Spain I was wondering if anyone knows which one he was intending to capture.
I believe that at this time France was at war with Spain so this would be a window of opportunity he could not resist.
A little bit on this subject... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Spain
https://epicworldhistory.blogspot.ca...-americas.html
Patio Process Silver Extraction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patio_process
Karankawa Indian's (dog lover's or helper's) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/karankawa_people
Pirates & Privateers working the Gulf of Mexico had an effect on the expedition: http://www.cindyvallar.com/spanishadventurers.html
French Colonization of Texas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...ation_of_Texas
San Saba Mine Texas up the San Saba River/Colorado River by canoe?
http://texashillcountry.com/billion-...-hill-country/
Otherwise known as the James Jim Bowie Mine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bowie#San_Saba_Mine

Thanks links working have a good day all....
Regard's Patrick

Last edited by SmackUm; 27 Feb 17 at 15:57.. Reason: Thanks links working...
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Old 28 Feb 17, 13:51
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More related topics:
Father Louis Hennepin's map of New France 1683
https://www.hjbmaps.com/products/ant...-hennepin-1683 only $3,500.00
Spanish Doubloon (Gold Coin): https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubloon
Pieces of Eight (Silver Coin): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar
The Renaissance Period had a profound influence on art, map making & coin art.
It might have been French Buccaneers attacked the Ketch Saint Francois off the coast of Haiti in search of treasure.
They used fast small ships like the sloop able sneak up on larger prey and escape up estuaries with out a trace.
All they needed was a small island & river large enough to tack line to pull the sloop up stream with no hostile natives to contend with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccaneer
Turtle Island: http://www.thepiratesrealm.com/Isle%20of%20Tortuga.html

Last edited by SmackUm; 28 Feb 17 at 14:01.. Reason: fix link
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