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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #16  
Old 22 Jan 17, 09:27
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The larger gun would also mean additional weight not only from the gun but also heavier rounds which also require more compartment space. The weight factor would have impact on speed, fuel consumption, and track psi for maneuverability--all the factors would work against a light tank for reconnaissance mission.
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  #17  
Old 22 Jan 17, 12:06
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
This is the first I have heard that the T-34/85 had an enlarged Turret Ring. If you can recall where you read that and can pass it on, I would appreciate it.
A quick reference from Wiki, if that works for you; "With the T-43 cancelled, the Soviet command made the decision to retool the factories to produce an improved version of the T-34. Its turret ring was enlarged from 1,425 mm (56 in) to 1,600 mm (63 in), allowing a larger turret to be fitted and thus the larger 85 mm gun..."

Or in Armored Champion by Zaloga in which he discusses the development of the T-34/85 on page 201; "...A number of technical issues had to be resolved in the design, including an increase in the turret ring diameter from 1.46m to 1.6m to accommodate the new turret..."
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  #18  
Old 22 Jan 17, 12:10
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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
A quick reference from Wiki, if that works for you; "With the T-43 cancelled, the Soviet command made the decision to retool the factories to produce an improved version of the T-34. Its turret ring was enlarged from 1,425 mm (56 in) to 1,600 mm (63 in), allowing a larger turret to be fitted and thus the larger 85 mm gun..."

Or in Armored Champion by Zaloga in which he discusses the development of the T-34/85 on page 201; "...A number of technical issues had to be resolved in the design, including an increase in the turret ring diameter from 1.46m to 1.6m to accommodate the new turret..."
The Soviets also had the luxury of a broader railway gauge than the West so that increasing the turret ring diameter may not have imposed too many transportation issues. (Brunel was right)
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Old 22 Jan 17, 15:07
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Was a small turret ring togheter with an enormous gun the reason the KV-2 had such a weirdly tall turret?

If this worked to mount huge guns on too small hulls I wonder if it could've been done on small tank hulls as a stop-gap? e.g. the Germans early in the Russian campaign, using 38t, panzer II, III etc.
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Old 22 Jan 17, 15:18
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The scientific answer is to increase the velocity, the same way rifle bullets have been shrunk down to 5.56 or .223 and boosted in velocity.

The actual killing part of the Abra,s APFSDS round is far below the caliber of the barrel. All the rest is window dressing to boost the velocity.

Or, alternatively, you go to a missile launched by an armored vehicle, which kills everything and has no recoil requirements whatsoever, aka TOW and many similar systems.
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Old 22 Jan 17, 17:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireGodHamster View Post
Was a small turret ring togheter with an enormous gun the reason the KV-2 had such a weirdly tall turret?

If this worked to mount huge guns on too small hulls I wonder if it could've been done on small tank hulls as a stop-gap? e.g. the Germans early in the Russian campaign, using 38t, panzer II, III etc.
The Germans could have developed the 5cm/60 much quicker and mounted it on the 35T, 38T and Panzer II. The successor to the P-2 was the Lynx which had an armored car turret mounting a 50/60. The problem was getting it into series production and out to the troops. My opinion was it was not considered necessary until the T-34 showed up in Red Army units. Then there was a rush to field as many vehicles as possible with 7.5cm weapons as possible. They even used Red Army 76.2 guns and French 75's.

If they would have planned ahead, the Hetzer was a much better weapon than the Marder 2 and 3. I believe the surviving 35T's were sold to the Romanians, Hungarians and Bulgarians.

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  #22  
Old 22 Jan 17, 23:39
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Some of it comes down to what they could mill at the time, or if they wanted a specific feature.

The Ram for example, 60.5 inch inner ring. Before it was built some of those involved wanted something like a 72 inch ring If I recall.

At the time they did not have a milling machine that could cut a hole that large in one go so.

As well 60.5 inches was apparently as large as they go could and still have the turret ring be one solid piece instead of building it up in sections which they did not want to do.


Then when deciding on the design for the armament they went with an inner mantlet instead of an external, this takes up more room inside of the turret.

That said they did decided to go to a bolted on front instead of a welded front like the first Ram had to allow the possibility of an easier up-gunning or I suppose a redesigned front for the future, which never really happened. other then the bored out 6 pdr to 75mm.


Imagine the mantlet on the outside of the turret with say a US type shield and you can see what kind of room they would free up.




They managed to shove the US 75mm into the Chruchill with the same concept. Otherwise it's quite doubtful it would have fit nearly as well or as comfortably for the crew in it's 54 inch turret ring.

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  #23  
Old 26 Jan 17, 14:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
The scientific answer is to increase the velocity, the same way rifle bullets have been shrunk down to 5.56 or .223 and boosted in velocity.

The actual killing part of the Abra,s APFSDS round is far below the caliber of the barrel. All the rest is window dressing to boost the velocity.

Or, alternatively, you go to a missile launched by an armored vehicle, which kills everything and has no recoil requirements whatsoever, aka TOW and many similar systems.
Destructive ability sacrificed significantly for high velocity? I'm curious.
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  #24  
Old 26 Jan 17, 14:46
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Destructive ability sacrificed significantly for high velocity? I'm curious.
The Sabot rounds are armour-piercing so it is more the maximization of energy transmission at the point of impact:
- The shell is 120mm and so uses a significant amour of propulsive charge, attaining high muzzle velocity
- The armour-piercing dart is a very dense metal
- The dart therefor carries a huge amount of kinetic energy
- When it hits the target, it transmits that kinetic energy against a relatively small area, allowing better penetration capability

Think impact of a knife versus fist or the pain of being stepped on by a stiletto versus a running shoe.
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  #25  
Old 26 Jan 17, 15:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
The Sabot rounds are armour-piercing so it is more the maximization of energy transmission at the point of impact:
- The shell is 120mm and so uses a significant amour of propulsive charge, attaining high muzzle velocity
- The armour-piercing dart is a very dense metal
- The dart therefor carries a huge amount of kinetic energy
- When it hits the target, it transmits that kinetic energy against a relatively small area, allowing better penetration capability

Think impact of a knife versus fist or the pain of being stepped on by a stiletto versus a running shoe.
You've missed a bit out. The sabotted round is relatively light and so is accelerated up the barrel faster but a large light round looses velocity due to air Resistance faster than a narrow denser projectile hence the need to lose the sabot
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  #26  
Old 26 Jan 17, 15:06
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You've missed a bit out. The sabotted round is relatively light and so is accelerated up the barrel faster but a large light round looses velocity due to air Resistance faster than a narrow denser projectile hence the need to lose the sabot
Yes, that is true. The sabot is basically there to provide a barrel-hugging, over-sized charge to the dart and once clear of the barrel it become unnecessary weight and drag.

Downside being that the APFSDS lose effectiveness with range and declining velocity. HESH / HEAT, though slower, largely retain their properties irrespective of range
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  #27  
Old 27 Jan 17, 17:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Some of the blast is vented at the end of the barrel. This causes much smoke and dust to appear! That gives away the position!

Pruitt
It also could be quite unpleasant for anyone near the muzzle break when the gun is fired
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  #28  
Old 27 Jan 17, 17:55
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It also could be quite unpleasant for anyone near the muzzle break when the gun is fired
Possibly an unforgettable experience.

The first time i was at a live-fire demo, I was struck by how slowly the IFV / tanks rounds seemed to travel.
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Old 27 Jan 17, 18:02
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Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
Possibly an unforgettable experience.

The first time i was at a live-fire demo, I was struck by how slowly the IFV / tanks rounds seemed to travel.
Adrenaline . Saved my life on more than one occasion.
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Old 27 Jan 17, 18:10
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Adrenaline . Saved my life on more than one occasion.
Fortunately, they were not shooting at me
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