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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > East Asia and the Pacific

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East Asia and the Pacific China - Japan - Australia and challenges throughout East Asia.

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  #1  
Old 09 Dec 16, 14:51
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President-Elect Trump stirred up the hornet's nest

I am only expressing my opinions here. I am not sure PET (President-Elect Trump) should be applauded or criticized. Don't get me wrong, Chinese like a strong American President who has kahunas.

PET by speaking to Taiwanese President Tsai Ing-Wen, he has essentially fire a shot cross the bow of PRC foreign affairs. President Tsai is pro Taiwanese Independent that would like anything to boost her popularity in Taiwan. Her approval rating in Taiwan in in the low thirties since her political stance has cooled off Chinese tourists from Mainland China. Tourists attractions and related business such as transportation, lodging, and also food services are hurting badly. They lost over 50% of business since her presidency. Chinese are also using their pocket book as weapon against Taiwanese interests in China and abroad diplomatically.

PET is neither wrong or right at this point. He needs to stick to his guns. If he is going to play hard ball against China, then do it. One thing is for sure; expect China to retaliate. Anything from trade to militarily. In 1990's, President Clinton had to send USS Enterprise and USS Independence near Taiwan Strait to show Chinese not to interfere Taiwanese Election. What will PET do? If he will stick to his kahunas? Remember China has hypersonic anti-ship cruise missiles, and much better capable submarine fleet now. USN is on notice according Chinese Naval Expert Lyle Goldstein. I don't think we have the freedom we use to have in East to South China Sea, and Taiwan Strait anymore.

It's like a diplomatic poker. Is Trump calling Chinese bluffing? Or China will call PET's bluffing.

To add icing on the cake. Russia has deployed 4 batteries of mobile ballistic missiles in Kuril Island pointing at Tokyo. More capable ballistic missile boat has been deployed in Russian Pacific Fleet.

God helps PET. Pacific could be the initiation of WW3.
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  #2  
Old 09 Dec 16, 15:44
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He stirred up the cesspool.

The PRC needs to be reminded regularly that it is the backward stepchild of a dying ideology.

The PRC's economy is red-lining, its ecology is dying, and its military is stagnant and backwards.

Now is a good time to increase the pressure. With a little luck we can see a return to the internal fragmentation that dominated China's first third of the 20th Century.
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  #3  
Old 13 Dec 16, 01:55
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
He stirred up the cesspool.

The PRC needs to be reminded regularly that it is the backward stepchild of a dying ideology.

The PRC's economy is red-lining, its ecology is dying, and its military is stagnant and backwards.

Now is a good time to increase the pressure. With a little luck we can see a return to the internal fragmentation that dominated China's first third of the 20th Century.
My italics and bold: RZ

One would hope that greater inner political and social turmoil in China and among the belligerent and bellicose Chinese (Chinese society is already inwardly chaotic and very disordered) would be produced by sudden increased pressure on Peking.

The internal fragmentation of China would certainly be a good thing for the rest of East Asia. A fragmented China with its political and military leadership absorbed in its own interior disorder and instability is a peaceful China to the outer world.

Anyone who has lived in and among the Chinese for any considerable length of time knows how aggressively selfish and self-centred and primitive, and above all, insecure the Chinese really are. Socially and culturally, their grandiose and silly pretensions to civilisation are rapidly revealed to be illusory once one has lived in any part of "Greater" China.

The illusions and delusions that the Chinese harbour and propagate about themselves in order to compensate for their own insecurity and feelings of inadequacy and inferiority are potentially very dangerous. Even Mao Tse-tung, it was recorded by the Australian East-Asia-based journalist Richard Hughes, admitted in a private conversation with his niece or some other younger relative in the 1950s or early 60s, I can't remember just when, that the Chinese were not a peace-loving people at all, despite the Chinese Communist Party's propaganda proclaiming their peaceful intentions and their contributions to world peace, but a bellicose people much given to fighting among themselves. It was clear to me when I lived in Chinese society that Chinese belligerence and aggressiveness was why kung-fu and other forms of close-quarter, hand-to-hand fighting had originated and come out of China (and other East Asian countries): the Chinese were always squabbling and fighting among themselves.

That is not to say that there are no good Chinese: there are certainly some very good, generous, and sincere Chinese among the more educated sections of Chinese society. But the vast bulk of the Chinese are a pre-Industrial-Revolution, agrarian peasantry or descended from the peasantry and have all the attitudes, prejudices, and, I shall say it once more, delusions and illusions that that entails. Many urban, middle-class Chinese, including many of the wealthier ones, who are four or five generations out of the paddy fields are still peasants in how they think and act. Chinese society and culture are clearly a feudal-peasant society and a feudal-peasant culture. Socially and culturally, many, too many, Chinese are in the Dark Ages.

And Maoism/Marxism-Leninism for all its virulently propagated claims to being anti-feudal, anti-colonialist, and anti-imperialist simply replaced one divided, disordered feudal-imperial dynasty and state with a more unified, centralised feudal-imperial dynasty and state that was more effective in bringing and maintaining a semblance of social and political order to and in the country. But it did nothing to change the feudal-imperial mentality of the Chinese. Feudalism, imperialism, and all the attitudes, world-views, and outlooks that they produce coupled with an illusory, delusory, and very naive sense of racial, social, and cultural superiority to the other peoples of this world, are alive and well among many Chinese and most especially in the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. China's political and military leadership reflect very much the characteristics of Chinese society and culture, as naturally, inevitably, and invariably they would.

Last edited by Redzen; 13 Dec 16 at 02:38..
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  #4  
Old 13 Dec 16, 05:08
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China needs the USA far more than the USA needs China and in fact the USA could gain by switching Twain as the one China. With out the US market China will collapse. I am all for a hardline and major shift in US China dealings. The CCP needs to burn.
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  #5  
Old 13 Dec 16, 12:52
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Originally Posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
I am only expressing my opinions here. I am not sure PET (President-Elect Trump) should be applauded or criticized. Don't get me wrong, Chinese like a strong American President who has kahunas.

PET by speaking to Taiwanese President Tsai Ing-Wen, he has essentially fire a shot cross the bow of PRC foreign affairs. President Tsai is pro Taiwanese Independent that would like anything to boost her popularity in Taiwan. Her approval rating in Taiwan in in the low thirties since her political stance has cooled off Chinese tourists from Mainland China. Tourists attractions and related business such as transportation, lodging, and also food services are hurting badly. They lost over 50% of business since her presidency. Chinese are also using their pocket book as weapon against Taiwanese interests in China and abroad diplomatically.

PET is neither wrong or right at this point. He needs to stick to his guns. If he is going to play hard ball against China, then do it. One thing is for sure; expect China to retaliate. Anything from trade to militarily. In 1990's, President Clinton had to send USS Enterprise and USS Independence near Taiwan Strait to show Chinese not to interfere Taiwanese Election. What will PET do? If he will stick to his kahunas? Remember China has hypersonic anti-ship cruise missiles, and much better capable submarine fleet now. USN is on notice according Chinese Naval Expert Lyle Goldstein. I don't think we have the freedom we use to have in East to South China Sea, and Taiwan Strait anymore.

It's like a diplomatic poker. Is Trump calling Chinese bluffing? Or China will call PET's bluffing.

To add icing on the cake. Russia has deployed 4 batteries of mobile ballistic missiles in Kuril Island pointing at Tokyo. More capable ballistic missile boat has been deployed in Russian Pacific Fleet.

God helps PET. Pacific could be the initiation of WW3.
I would opine that USN subs are still better than anything that is in China's inventory and as far as the hypersonic missiles that falls in the same bracket as a teenage boy's claims to seducing the head cheer leader. I am much more concerned about the way that the USN as lapsed in the aspects of leadership, discipline and training than materiel shortcomings. With that being said, I am convinced that the Donald is nothing more than a blowhard and a con artist. If it comes down to a staring contest between the Donald and Beijing I am almost willing to bet that Donald will blink and tuck his tail between his legs; we shall see.
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Old 13 Dec 16, 13:29
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A lot of people have been saying that for the last 18 months or so. Hasn't worked out well for any of them.
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Old 13 Dec 16, 14:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzen View Post
My italics and bold: RZ

One would hope that greater inner political and social turmoil in China and among the belligerent and bellicose Chinese (Chinese society is already inwardly chaotic and very disordered) would be produced by sudden increased pressure on Peking.

The internal fragmentation of China would certainly be a good thing for the rest of East Asia. A fragmented China with its political and military leadership absorbed in its own interior disorder and instability is a peaceful China to the outer world.

Anyone who has lived in and among the Chinese for any considerable length of time knows how aggressively selfish and self-centred and primitive, and above all, insecure the Chinese really are. Socially and culturally, their grandiose and silly pretensions to civilisation are rapidly revealed to be illusory once one has lived in any part of "Greater" China.

The illusions and delusions that the Chinese harbour and propagate about themselves in order to compensate for their own insecurity and feelings of inadequacy and inferiority are potentially very dangerous. Even Mao Tse-tung, it was recorded by the Australian East-Asia-based journalist Richard Hughes, admitted in a private conversation with his niece or some other younger relative in the 1950s or early 60s, I can't remember just when, that the Chinese were not a peace-loving people at all, despite the Chinese Communist Party's propaganda proclaiming their peaceful intentions and their contributions to world peace, but a bellicose people much given to fighting among themselves. It was clear to me when I lived in Chinese society that Chinese belligerence and aggressiveness was why kung-fu and other forms of close-quarter, hand-to-hand fighting had originated and come out of China (and other East Asian countries): the Chinese were always squabbling and fighting among themselves.

That is not to say that there are no good Chinese: there are certainly some very good, generous, and sincere Chinese among the more educated sections of Chinese society. But the vast bulk of the Chinese are a pre-Industrial-Revolution, agrarian peasantry or descended from the peasantry and have all the attitudes, prejudices, and, I shall say it once more, delusions and illusions that that entails. Many urban, middle-class Chinese, including many of the wealthier ones, who are four or five generations out of the paddy fields are still peasants in how they think and act. Chinese society and culture are clearly a feudal-peasant society and a feudal-peasant culture. Socially and culturally, many, too many, Chinese are in the Dark Ages.

And Maoism/Marxism-Leninism for all its virulently propagated claims to being anti-feudal, anti-colonialist, and anti-imperialist simply replaced one divided, disordered feudal-imperial dynasty and state with a more unified, centralised feudal-imperial dynasty and state that was more effective in bringing and maintaining a semblance of social and political order to and in the country. But it did nothing to change the feudal-imperial mentality of the Chinese. Feudalism, imperialism, and all the attitudes, world-views, and outlooks that they produce coupled with an illusory, delusory, and very naive sense of racial, social, and cultural superiority to the other peoples of this world, are alive and well among many Chinese and most especially in the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. China's political and military leadership reflect very much the characteristics of Chinese society and culture, as naturally, inevitably, and invariably they would.
Great post, even if you are going to catch Hell for it.
I have to agree, in General terms, and basically, it is one great-big New York City, although I hear that parts of Paris and London are about the same.
It ain't just China.
And isn't it ironic, how more education helps the Chinese rise above it, while in the west it tends to make the problem even worse in so many cases... ?
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Old 13 Dec 16, 14:17
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A lot of people have been saying that for the last 18 months or so. Hasn't worked out well for any of them.
True, but now the Chump is dealing with China. This is not an electoral race we are discussing. IMO China has supplanted Russia as our primary competitor and, to me, it is very clear that China wishes to be the new top dog, and not just militarily either.
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Old 13 Dec 16, 14:21
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There are some fine post in this thread but have we forgotten the lessons of Iraq already? We don't want to destroy the Chinese government we want it to reform. A wounded animal is the most dangerous kind.
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Old 13 Dec 16, 14:43
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
True, but now the Chump is dealing with China. This is not an electoral race we are discussing. IMO China has supplanted Russia as our primary competitor and, to me, it is very clear that China wishes to be the new top dog, and not just militarily either.
Which is exactly why I think he has the right idea. If China has become the new biggest threat then getting closer to Russia is a smart move. Good old fashion British style geopolitics. Play everyone against the biggest threat.

China isn't the type to appreciate niceties and meaningless good PR. They play hardball and need to be dealt with accordingly. They may not like us for it but its much more important that they at least hold us in a fearful respect as the Soviet Union did. That gets you a lot farther in the great game than what we've been doing under Obama and his predecessors.
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Old 14 Dec 16, 07:39
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Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
Which is exactly why I think he has the right idea. If China has become the new biggest threat then getting closer to Russia is a smart move. Good old fashion British style geopolitics. Play everyone against the biggest threat.

China isn't the type to appreciate niceties and meaningless good PR. They play hardball and need to be dealt with accordingly. They may not like us for it but its much more important that they at least hold us in a fearful respect as the Soviet Union did. That gets you a lot farther in the great game than what we've been doing under Obama and his predecessors.
Agreed; the fact is that Russia and China have been competitors for longer than the United States has existed and that since the Cold War the common denominator has been a mutual distrust of the USA. Nonetheless, I have to wonder what could happen if the relationship between the USA and the PRC becomes defined by contentiousness, acrimony and possibly violence; how far would a Chump administration be willing to go? To be clear, I personally believe that our relationship with China should be more assertive and that China does not respect or take seriously a soft touch. With that being said, are we really prepared to get into what could possibly be an armed conflict with China?
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Old 14 Dec 16, 07:55
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
Agreed; the fact is that Russia and China have been competitors for longer than the United States has existed and that since the Cold War the common denominator has been a mutual distrust of the USA. Nonetheless, I have to wonder what could happen if the relationship between the USA and the PRC becomes defined by contentiousness, acrimony and possibly violence; how far would a Chump administration be willing to go? To be clear, I personally believe that our relationship with China should be more assertive and that China does not respect or take seriously a soft touch. With that being said, are we really prepared to get into what could possibly be an armed conflict with China?
As I see it the Chinese would lose a lot more than we would. I don't think that they are willing to go to war over the Spratleys and the South China Sea. That's the only real bone of contention that's cropped up. Yeah they've been dicks about it but with a wimp like bobo leading the west what do you expect?

I expect things will calm down as China sees the new administration and guy who has a pair take over...
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Old 14 Dec 16, 12:42
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As I see it the Chinese would lose a lot more than we would. I don't think that they are willing to go to war over the Spratleys and the South China Sea. That's the only real bone of contention that's cropped up. Yeah they've been dicks about it but with a wimp like bobo leading the west what do you expect?

I expect things will calm down as China sees the new administration and guy who has a pair take over...
No argument that the Donald can talk the talk, but will he walk the walk?
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Old 14 Dec 16, 13:44
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Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
Which is exactly why I think he has the right idea. If China has become the new biggest threat then getting closer to Russia is a smart move. Good old fashion British style geopolitics. Play everyone against the biggest threat.
What's in it for Russia to worsen its relations with China? And what is the US willing to "pay" for Russia to do so?
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Old 14 Dec 16, 15:27
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Its not a matter of driving Russia away from China but rather a matter of not driving Russia into China's arms.

Plus you can't look at these things in isolation. For example Russia is a wild card in the far east, a potential probelm in Europe and a potential ally in the Middle East. The key is finding a way to reconcile these disparate interests in such a way that we move past the outdated cold war paradigm.

We have no real ideological quarrel with Russia anymore, its all realpolitik and knee jerk contratianism left over from the cold war. That's the mindset that leads us into supporting the Syrian rebels even though they have been replaced with islamists for no other reason than Russia supports Assad and Obama's Suadi backers told him to. We have comments interests and we need to start recognizing and acting on them instead of continuing to argue over nothing.

That goes for both of us. We need to stop complaining about Russian domestic policy, pussy riot and nonsense like that and they need to leave get over their fear of NATO and its members alone. Among many other things. My point is that common ground is there and we would be better of working toward it at the expense of the likes of IS and the PRC.
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