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  #46  
Old 09 Dec 16, 15:35
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i see vicksburg as the mortal blow
i see gettysburg as the moral blow.
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  #47  
Old 09 Dec 16, 16:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperlord View Post
I disagree quite strongly with this. First off, Jackson was not Lee's right-hand man, or not his only right-hand man anyway. Lee leaned more heavily on Longstreet, who was the army's actual second-in-command, and arguably even on Stuart, with whom he had a very fatherly relationship. And CSA morale most certainly did not go down after Chancellorsville; quite the contrary, Lee and his army felt more confident than ever after their stunning victory there, and indeed, they even gained a sense of invincibility that had been growing since their easy win at Fredericksburg. They would put that sense of invincibility to the test just two months later of course, at another little crossroads, in Pennsylvania. I do not believe Jackson's presence would have made a vast difference to the outcome of the Gettysburg Campaign.
I believe Jackson was far more important for both morale, and leadership than you give him credit for. Would it have made any difference in the outcome of the war had he survived his injuries? I don't know.
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  #48  
Old 09 Dec 16, 16:41
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Originally Posted by drivin-fool View Post
I believe Jackson was far more important for both morale, and leadership than you give him credit for. Would it have made any difference in the outcome of the war had he survived his injuries? I don't know.
I would say no.

The CSA was defeated by strategic planning, and Jackson did not operate at that level, nor would he be likely to do so in later years.

Lee was unarguably better than Jackson, and he could not stop the tide of defeat that engulfed the South.

All the Union needed to win was the will to bear the burden.
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  #49  
Old 09 Dec 16, 18:02
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Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
If you had left this as an opinion, I would have moved on, but to your claim of widespread Southern view of Gettysburg as a victory or draw, I'd like to ask for some primary source material.
There are many here with a much broader understanding regarding the nuances of the War. But I am a major primary source nut. Journals, diaries, autobiographies etc. have been an interest for years. There might be an odd local town paper trumpeting junk, however, I do not recall any missive or notation at the time that viewed it as anything but disappointing to say the least.

Most Universities have some material on hand. If you want a treasure of Southern personal viewpoints, I'd suggest the UNC library on line. Very strong.
I dont have the originals I got them from two sources both by Gary Gallagher of the university of Virginia. His lectures and book on "the confederate war"
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  #50  
Old 09 Dec 16, 18:56
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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Impact is measured in terms of those things that CHANGED after the battle.

Wilderness had all of the above mentioned as changes of a permanent nature.

No previous engagment had so many far reaching consequences...most of which the public was quite unaware of at the time.

The military office holders, and the soldiers on the ground...could see it.

Post Wilderness, the Army of the Potomac never fought another major battle on Union soil. Washington was defended by other troops when Jubal Early struck northward.

Simple as that. The rest just confirms that fact alone.
Yes, but surely the IMPACT must be assessed not only on the battlefield but the knock-on effect that the particular action had.
Thus Antietam, apart from being the most costly action in terms of casualties ,also triggered the issuing of the Emancipation Proclamation which surely prevented any intervention by the European powers.
This rendered an eventual Union victory a virtual certainty.
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Old 09 Dec 16, 20:21
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Savez and Arnold J Rimmer,

I wonder what impact a Confederate New Orleans would have on operations in the Mississippi Valley. Perhaps a flotilla could have opposed Grant's Vicksburg Campaign.

And I guess the traffic headed for New Orleans would have been diverted to Mobile. That would make it pretty foolish for the North to hold off on invading that city

Last edited by American87; 09 Dec 16 at 20:27..
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  #52  
Old 09 Dec 16, 20:54
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I cannot see a port of the importance of New Orleans being left in Confederate hands in any alternate or scenario you might wish to conjure up.

The south were caught napping by the Union coup in taking this port, and the effects of Ben Butler's attitudes to the"Fugitive slave" had possibly more far reaching consequences for the Confederate cause than anything military or otherwise that New Orleans contributed.

When I play VGs "Civil War", my limited supply of confederate fortress counters guarantee's that the very first large fortress construction done by my confederates is New Orleans.

In over 20 matches and an unbroken series of confederate victories, I have NEVER lost New Orleans to an opponent!

Drusus

Last edited by Drusus Nero; 10 Dec 16 at 03:06..
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  #53  
Old 09 Dec 16, 20:58
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The problem with counter-factuals involving New Orleans is that no matter what, the place was just not defensible. It's at the bottom of a bowl and the condtions made fortifying it any further impracticable. Ultimately about all that likely could have been done was to force the Union to spend more troops on it.
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  #54  
Old 09 Dec 16, 21:18
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Smaller boats made a lot of trips to the Confederacy after New Orleans was taken. Just look at Galveston and the Texas Ports. Louisiana had many rivers that exited into the Gulf. There were similar rivers coming out of Mississippi, Alabama and Florida.

The problem was the small draft of the vessels that ran the Blockade and the lack of railroads from these ports. Galveston had a railroad leading to what is now Houston. One branch ran to Beaumont and there were also several small lines going in other directions. Blockade Runners wanted high profit cargoes and this often led to civilian commodities. Coffee was quite dear in Texas and Louisiana. The Confederate District Commanders got command over incoming cargoes and then mostly military cargoes were carried. The elite in society still got things like shoes and needles and thread, but at outrageous prices. No matter how many civilian outfits tried to make footwear and clothes, there was never enough. Most Farmers ended up making their own Cotton and Wool cloth.

Then you had the Yankee speculators that were glad to sell to the Confederates through the lines! In the Red River Campaign, many Farmers hid their cotton from General Taylor. Yankee agents had went through and signed contracts with them to buy their cotton. General Kirby Smith allowed the traffic. General Taylor under Kirby Smith however burned all he found as he retreated. The humorous part is the Union Navy seized all the cotton near the Red River and sold it under the Naval Law.

New Orleans was also a source of manpower. Many Volunteers went home after their enlistments ran out. Many deserted from their units. If the Confederacy had kept control of New Orleans they could have conscripted every White Male they found in New Orleans. As it was, many men avoided service by living there. The Union Army did conscript many White Men in New Orleans and some enlisted in the New England Regiments that went through there. Taylor usually hung all these "patriots" that they caught. A POW with a Southern accent tended to stick out from the Boys from Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont.

General Taylor had a brother in law that lived in New Orleans and was a Cotton Broker. Taylor also had an extensive espionage service in New Orleans. Taylor sometimes knew campaign plans before the Union units in the field did.

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  #55  
Old 09 Dec 16, 22:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperlord View Post
By this definition, so was Fredericksburg for the Union. Lee attacked, got repulsed, bloodily, and retreated. Same as Burnside. The casualties weren't quite as lopsided but there you have it. This is nonsensical.
How was Gettysburg a draw? Lee had a goal and he failed that goal, the Union defeated his every attempt to dislodge the Union from the high ground.
The CSA was defeated soundly at Gettysburg.
The ANV withdrew from the battlefield in ruins.
The question is why did Lee abandon his previous tactics that had always brought him victory?
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  #56  
Old 09 Dec 16, 22:43
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Yes, but surely the IMPACT must be assessed not only on the battlefield but the knock-on effect that the particular action had.
Thus Antietam, apart from being the most costly action in terms of casualties ,also triggered the issuing of the Emancipation Proclamation which surely prevented any intervention by the European powers.
This rendered an eventual Union victory a virtual certainty.
New Orleans was the largest city in the Confederacy, a detail that is often overlooked in these discussions. Richmond Va. was a small town in comparison, in 1860 the population was 37,910, New Orleans had a population of 168,175.
When a nation losses it largest city with barely a fight what does that do to the morale of the nation?
New Orleans was not only the most important port city for the South, it was crucial for the midwestern states and therefore deserved an earnest defense.
Lee deserves praise for what he did, however his victories came at the expense of the rest of the southern states that supplied troops to defend Virginia, while the Union cut the South in half by taking control of the Mississippi, Cumberland and Tennessee Rivers, and controlled most of the seaports.
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  #57  
Old 10 Dec 16, 01:29
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Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
New Orleans was the largest city in the Confederacy, a detail that is often overlooked in these discussions. Richmond Va. was a small town in comparison, in 1860 the population was 37,910, New Orleans had a population of 168,175.
When a nation losses it largest city with barely a fight what does that do to the morale of the nation?
New Orleans was not only the most important port city for the South, it was crucial for the midwestern states and therefore deserved an earnest defense.
Lee deserves praise for what he did, however his victories came at the expense of the rest of the southern states that supplied troops to defend Virginia, while the Union cut the South in half by taking control of the Mississippi, Cumberland and Tennessee Rivers, and controlled most of the seaports.
I agree, I've never underestimated the importance of the loss of New Orleans. But,again, it's very difficult to equate the effect of a particular battle as opposed to the loss of a key piece of territory.
(I'm very tentative in my suggestions regarding the American Civil War as I can't hope to match knowledge with US contributors).
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  #58  
Old 10 Dec 16, 10:20
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Originally Posted by drivin-fool View Post
I believe Jackson was far more important for both morale, and leadership than you give him credit for. Would it have made any difference in the outcome of the war had he survived his injuries? I don't know.
The primary source accounts make it quite clear that the Army of Northern Virginia's morale, despite the loss of Jackson, was probably higher than ever before going into the Gettysburg Campaign.
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  #59  
Old 11 Dec 16, 16:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperlord View Post
The problem with counter-factuals involving New Orleans is that no matter what, the place was just not defensible. It's at the bottom of a bowl and the condtions made fortifying it any further impracticable. Ultimately about all that likely could have been done was to force the Union to spend more troops on it.
The North had little problem defending it after occupying it.
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Old 11 Dec 16, 18:57
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Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
The North had little problem defending it after occupying it.
The Confederate couldn't attack it from the sea.
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