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  #31  
Old 09 Dec 16, 00:24
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Thanx for reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
I disagree with much you have said and agree with some as well. But given the south best chance for victory [ before Atlanta fell and the 64 election] was in part because of grants long losses during the campaign and failure to destroy lee or capture Richmond before Lincoln's reelection, its hard to see the wilderness that started the bloodletting, as the big positive impact you portray.
Impact is measured in terms of those things that CHANGED after the battle.

Wilderness had all of the above mentioned as changes of a permanent nature.

No previous engagment had so many far reaching consequences...most of which the public was quite unaware of at the time.

The military office holders, and the soldiers on the ground...could see it.

Post Wilderness, the Army of the Potomac never fought another major battle on Union soil. Washington was defended by other troops when Jubal Early struck northward.

Simple as that. The rest just confirms that fact alone.
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  #32  
Old 09 Dec 16, 00:55
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There were over 2,000 engagements during the ACW, from scrimmages, to sieges to battles each one deserves recognition, but to boil it down to which one was the most important is a challenge.

Gettysburg saved the Union. That one battle IMO secured the survival of the Union.
That being said, Vicksburg was the spike in the heart of the CSA.
With the loss of Vicksburg the South lost the use of The Mississippi, but more importantly, it turned Grant's fate to become Lincoln's man.
But., OTOH, I believe that Grant's Overland Campaign was really one battle because that is how Grant fought it. Nothing was going to stop his army from engaging Lee's army till it was destroyed, and that's what happened.
If Grant had failed at Vicksburg it would have changed everything.
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  #33  
Old 09 Dec 16, 01:25
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Hello Keith Urban Hermit!

Hello Keith!!

Haven't erd' from ya in ages, mate!

We aren't talking about TURNING POINTS....we are talking about IMPACT that rendered CHANGE...

Gettysburg did not change the tactical/strategic situation on the ground, and as it existed from July 1863 onward.

The Confederacy concentrated men and resources for the battle of The Wilderness with strategic victory still firmly on the table....in mind as well as in practice.

post Wilderness?

I'd say if something COULD have been done to counter, Lee would have done it....

But Grant backed him into a corner, figuratively speaking, only one way out...destroy Grant...if Lee could not do this, everything was lost, no matter what was happening in the Western theater...

it was nice to hear friom you again!

Drusus

Last edited by Drusus Nero; 09 Dec 16 at 07:11..
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  #34  
Old 09 Dec 16, 01:31
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Furthermore...

Grant HAD failed at Vicksburg....3 times!!!

And it didn't change the fact that he could return for a FOURTH try!

Grant was ALWAYS going to take Vicksburg...it was simply a matter of ...when?


If Grant were a confederate General, don't you think Jeff Davis would have sacked Grant after the third go at it? Lincoln most certainly had faith in Grant....the Press sure didn't....but the Press were'nt running the country...thank God!


Drusus

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  #35  
Old 09 Dec 16, 01:46
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Originally Posted by R. Evans View Post
I think you're right. New Orleans was important for closing the mouth of the Mississippi to the South but the blockade could be sustained without New Orleans in Union hands.
I wasn't arguing that position, it was a genuine question. I'm not too familiar with the Gulf Operations or the statistics of the blockade at New Orleans. It could be a vald point, for all I know.
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Old 09 Dec 16, 01:47
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Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
There were over 2,000 engagements during the ACW, from scrimmages, to sieges to battles each one deserves recognition, but to boil it down to which one was the most important is a challenge.

Gettysburg saved the Union. That one battle IMO secured the survival of the Union.
That being said, Vicksburg was the spike in the heart of the CSA.
With the loss of Vicksburg the South lost the use of The Mississippi, but more importantly, it turned Grant's fate to become Lincoln's man.
But., OTOH, I believe that Grant's Overland Campaign was really one battle because that is how Grant fought it. Nothing was going to stop his army from engaging Lee's army till it was destroyed, and that's what happened.
If Grant had failed at Vicksburg it would have changed everything.
As Massena says, "Excellent point and one worth noting."
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  #37  
Old 09 Dec 16, 02:00
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Smile Small question of my own...

Why hadn't Grant's other three failures had the effect you are suggesting?

Grant had already failed, and the government of the Union was broadly unaffected...save the Press....please see post #34
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  #38  
Old 09 Dec 16, 06:27
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Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
It was not my interpretation, but that of the south after the battle and of many in the north. Plus i would ask you to read my entire post, than you wont be taking a small section out of context.
You will notice I quoted the entire post so I did read it. Your absence of logic is still skewed, no matter what.

I volunteer in a local museum that displays a newspaper page dated July 3, 1863 showing a story about large Union losses at Vicksburg. The article is a positive one toward the rebel view. I wonder how the July 5 edition read? That is the same thinking you employ to try to gloss over the rebelís failure.

Gettysburg is a loss no matter how you cut it, period. Lee didnít say, ďIt is my fault, it is all my faultĒ because he thought the battles conclusion was reflective of some/any, type of victory!

Supplies? So what! What durable goods did the rebels leave seize that had a real effect on the Union war effort?

Foodstuffs and fodder are used up quickly and donít have a long term benefit. Of course you could argue that wasnít the case since the Army of Northern Virginia had 25% fewer mouths to feed on July 5 than they did on June 30!
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  #39  
Old 09 Dec 16, 09:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Why hadn't Grant's other three failures had the effect you are suggesting?

Grant had already failed, and the government of the Union was broadly unaffected...save the Press....please see post #34
Grant did not fail three times, his first three attempts did not achieve the stated goal.
Others may call that failure, but is it? Not if you shrug it off and try something else.
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  #40  
Old 09 Dec 16, 09:49
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Originally Posted by American87 View Post
The capture of New Orleans has also been mentioned a few times, but I don't see the importance. How many supplies did the South lose because it couldn't use N.O. as a port? Didn't the North occupy Pensacola? A Union blockade effort might be made from there, no? I'm not not up on my Gulf operations
New Orleans had ship building capabilities. With the loss of Pensacola, the South had very few places to build ships. The South lost the Civil War because it did not have an adequate navy to combat amphibious operations, especially on her rivers. New Orleans would have given the South the ability to produce more ships, not to mention the two massive ironclads being built there at the time of her fall. Also the loss of New Orleans sealed the fate of Vicksburg early. Had New Orleans been held Vicksburg would have never been besieged. New Orleans also could have produced a lot of clothing and supplies for the Confederate armies. Had Lincoln listened to his naval commanders instead of Northern and Midwestern business interests and let them take Mobile right after New Orleans, the war would probably have never made it to 1864.
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  #41  
Old 09 Dec 16, 10:36
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Originally Posted by American87 View Post
The capture of New Orleans has also been mentioned a few times, but I don't see the importance. How many supplies did the South lose because it couldn't use N.O. as a port? Didn't the North occupy Pensacola? A Union blockade effort might be made from there, no? I'm not not up on my Gulf operations
Savez hit a lot of it. I'll add that in this time period the Miss was the equivalent of a north-south Interstate, and seizing NO crippled transport options. In additional, when they lost NO the CSA lost the best land route to the Southwestern states, forcing a detour further north.

The South's transport net was weak from the start, and each blow to it was a nail in its coffin.

Plus the impact on the UK. A naval power cannot help but be aware of what that loss, and the failure or inability to re-take it, meant.
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Old 09 Dec 16, 11:16
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I have to question what role Chancellorsville played in all of this. Losing Jackson to friendly fire took a toll on the CSA, of which Lee had lost his right hand man. That battle certainly changed the game for the South. After losing Jackson, surely morale went down the tubes as well. Not that it was the most significant battle of the war, or one that changed everything, I think losing Jackson was definitely a turning point for the CSA.
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Old 09 Dec 16, 11:38
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Originally Posted by drivin-fool View Post
I have to question what role Chancellorsville played in all of this. Losing Jackson to friendly fire took a toll on the CSA, of which Lee had lost his right hand man. That battle certainly changed the game for the South. After losing Jackson, surely morale went down the tubes as well. Not that it was the most significant battle of the war, or one that changed everything, I think losing Jackson was definitely a turning point for the CSA.
Interesting.

Although I would point out that (allegedly) Lee called out for Hill on his deathbed; Jackson certainly did.
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  #44  
Old 09 Dec 16, 12:40
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Originally Posted by 1stvermont
Gettysburg was a tactical draw no matter how you describe it,
By this definition, so was Fredericksburg for the Union. Lee attacked, got repulsed, bloodily, and retreated. Same as Burnside. The casualties weren't quite as lopsided but there you have it. This is nonsensical.
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Old 09 Dec 16, 15:26
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Originally Posted by drivin-fool View Post
I have to question what role Chancellorsville played in all of this. Losing Jackson to friendly fire took a toll on the CSA, of which Lee had lost his right hand man. That battle certainly changed the game for the South. After losing Jackson, surely morale went down the tubes as well. Not that it was the most significant battle of the war, or one that changed everything, I think losing Jackson was definitely a turning point for the CSA.
I disagree quite strongly with this. First off, Jackson was not Lee's right-hand man, or not his only right-hand man anyway. Lee leaned more heavily on Longstreet, who was the army's actual second-in-command, and arguably even on Stuart, with whom he had a very fatherly relationship. And CSA morale most certainly did not go down after Chancellorsville; quite the contrary, Lee and his army felt more confident than ever after their stunning victory there, and indeed, they even gained a sense of invincibility that had been growing since their easy win at Fredericksburg. They would put that sense of invincibility to the test just two months later of course, at another little crossroads, in Pennsylvania. I do not believe Jackson's presence would have made a vast difference to the outcome of the Gettysburg Campaign.
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