HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Africa

Notices and Announcements

Africa Issues of modern Africa.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14 Nov 16, 05:11
VieuxChat's Avatar
VieuxChat VieuxChat is offline
Brigadier General
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Gauthier
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lyon
Posts: 2,127
VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500]
VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500]
Thumbs up French intervention in Mali: a very good article

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...RAND_RR770.pdf


Fascinating:


Quote:
er. The French
see fire maneuver as a luxury, something one can do when one has the means, but it is expen
-
sive. According to Goya, France’s Ground Forces Command has gone so far as to express the
desire that the French Army post-Afghanistan “de-Americanizes” so as not to retain the “bad
habits” picked up fighting alongside the U.S. military. “We learned a lot of methods from the
Americans,” he said. But they do not want to retain the default to standoff fires and prefer to go
back to “close combat.


Quote:
hat in Amettetaï the French
killed about 100 Islamist fighters. Of those, 80 were killed in close quarters; 12 were killed
by helicopters, and 12 by fighter jets. The close combat worked, he said, because the troops
had artillery and aviation support. However, the French Army could not have done the job
without the ground troops, not just for locating and flushing out the enemy but also because
they “needed to plant the flag.” It was, he said, akin to the Israeli campaign against Hezbollah,
although from his point of view the Israelis did not correctly understand both the importance
of the ground campaign and the appropriate coordination of the ground troops with f
Quote:
Once in Mali, the French units, armor included, had to cover a lot of ground. For exam
-
ple, the commander of GTIA 3 boasted that his battalion, during six weeks of operations,
remained almost entirely “in the zone of operations, near or in contact with the enemy, without
returning to base, without technical pauses, and without conducting repairs.” He continued:
“Each vehicle traveled 2,500 to 5,000 kilometers” off-road and on difficult ter
__________________
"To hell wars Grudges and parties ! As our fathers Sing in real friends, The clink of glasses Roses and lilies. The clink of glasses Roses and lilies."
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 14 Nov 16, 05:31
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,109
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

'half-baked, spurious nationalism'
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 14 Nov 16, 07:57
andrewza's Avatar
andrewza andrewza is offline
General of the Forums
South_Africa
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: siommons town
Posts: 8,634
andrewza has a spectacular aura about [400]
andrewza has a spectacular aura about [400]
All eays thought the french where so under rated. They are a well trained, disciplined force. The US styker brigader could learn alot from the mobile french forces.
__________________
Quote:
you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

CPO Mzinyati
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 14 Nov 16, 08:03
sebfrench76's Avatar
sebfrench76 sebfrench76 is offline
General of the Forums
France
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rouen,Normandy
Posts: 7,399
sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
All eays thought the french where so under rated. They are a well trained, disciplined force. The US styker brigader could learn alot from the mobile french forces.
Very kind from you.
Major Sennef has a pretty sharp view of the valuability of the french forces
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21 Nov 16, 16:45
Capt AFB's Avatar
Capt AFB Capt AFB is offline
Lieutenant General
Canada
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Eastern Canada
Posts: 3,739
Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
All eays thought the french where so under rated. They are a well trained, disciplined force.
That is the impression I had of them when working with French forces (an alpine infantry battalion) in the Kabul area. Definitely a close-combat type organisation, less dependent on air power to solve all their tactical problems.

Rumors is that Canadian troops are beingconsidered for deployment in Mali in the near future. I would welcome another opportunity to work with French forces.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21 Nov 16, 23:39
sebfrench76's Avatar
sebfrench76 sebfrench76 is offline
General of the Forums
France
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rouen,Normandy
Posts: 7,399
sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
With the Canadians by our side , these little bastards are screwed.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 26 Nov 16, 17:18
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,308
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
Ordered yesterday the book, The French War on Al Qa'ida in Africa by Christopher S. Chivvis. It is also about the French in Mali.
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27 Nov 16, 09:19
Capt AFB's Avatar
Capt AFB Capt AFB is offline
Lieutenant General
Canada
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Eastern Canada
Posts: 3,739
Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
With the Canadians by our side , these little bastards are screwed.
Good, if the Canadian public can remember that such mission is a long run thing and Canadian soldiers may be in Mali for years.


https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...d-to-mali.html
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 27 Nov 16, 16:38
VieuxChat's Avatar
VieuxChat VieuxChat is offline
Brigadier General
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Gauthier
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lyon
Posts: 2,127
VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500]
VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500]
Indeed, I'm sure they will do very good job.
__________________
"To hell wars Grudges and parties ! As our fathers Sing in real friends, The clink of glasses Roses and lilies. The clink of glasses Roses and lilies."
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01 Dec 16, 11:48
Capt AFB's Avatar
Capt AFB Capt AFB is offline
Lieutenant General
Canada
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Eastern Canada
Posts: 3,739
Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
Ordered yesterday the book, The French War on Al Qa'ida in Africa by Christopher S. Chivvis. It is also about the French in Mali.
After reading it, your two-cents on the value of the book would be much appreciated at my end, Sir.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 02 Dec 16, 11:26
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,308
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt AFB View Post
After reading it, your two-cents on the value of the book would be much appreciated at my end, Sir.
It's due in this month; I will move it to the top of the reading stack.
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02 Dec 16, 11:56
Capt AFB's Avatar
Capt AFB Capt AFB is offline
Lieutenant General
Canada
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Eastern Canada
Posts: 3,739
Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
It's due in this month; I will move it to the top of the reading stack.
Much appreciated
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11 Dec 16, 22:35
lirelou's Avatar
lirelou lirelou is offline
General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Shaun M. Darragh
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lutz
Posts: 4,918
lirelou gives and gets respect [800]
lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800] lirelou gives and gets respect [800]
A very good article, and it reminded me of Bigeard and the 3rd RPIMa at Timmoun. Sadly, I doubt we Americans will learn much from it. We seem enamored of living in large heavily defended camps with all the amenities of stateside posts and bases. More to the point, our promotion, pay and retirement systems tend to treat everyone on the same basis, without distinguishing between those who are sacrificing in the hard combat units, vis-a-vis those up on staff or in support bases in country, as well as those totally out of country.

American rewards systems tend to be niggardly, giving relatively small cash bonuses for hard duty rather than upping their promotion opportunities, base pay and retirement points and eligibility. There have been some steps forward, higher pay and retirement pay for Special Operations members who do the hard time. But that system needs to be Armed Forced Wide.

The remaining obstacle is the American attitude to firepower. It's great when you really need it, but it is a double edged sword and can render a non-hostile family or force hostile once they've suffered what they consider unjust losses. The old make contact, break contact, and call in supporting fire has to be consigned to the doctrinal garbage pile. The men on the ground must be able to take reasonably calculated risks designed to minimize non-combattant casualties without worrying about relieval over casualties that are higher than the staff or public expected.
__________________
dit: Lirelou

Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12 Dec 16, 04:04
VieuxChat's Avatar
VieuxChat VieuxChat is offline
Brigadier General
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Gauthier
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lyon
Posts: 2,127
VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500]
VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500] VieuxChat is a jewel in the rough [500]
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
A very good article, and it reminded me of Bigeard and the 3rd RPIMa at Timmoun. Sadly, I doubt we Americans will learn much from it. We seem enamored of living in large heavily defended camps with all the amenities of stateside posts and bases. More to the point, our promotion, pay and retirement systems tend to treat everyone on the same basis, without distinguishing between those who are sacrificing in the hard combat units, vis-a-vis those up on staff or in support bases in country, as well as those totally out of country.

American rewards systems tend to be niggardly, giving relatively small cash bonuses for hard duty rather than upping their promotion opportunities, base pay and retirement points and eligibility. There have been some steps forward, higher pay and retirement pay for Special Operations members who do the hard time. But that system needs to be Armed Forced Wide.

The remaining obstacle is the American attitude to firepower. It's great when you really need it, but it is a double edged sword and can render a non-hostile family or force hostile once they've suffered what they consider unjust losses. The old make contact, break contact, and call in supporting fire has to be consigned to the doctrinal garbage pile. The men on the ground must be able to take reasonably calculated risks designed to minimize non-combattant casualties without worrying about relieval over casualties that are higher than the staff or public expected.
Veryinteresting post, thank you.
__________________
"To hell wars Grudges and parties ! As our fathers Sing in real friends, The clink of glasses Roses and lilies. The clink of glasses Roses and lilies."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 15 Dec 16, 06:16
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,308
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt AFB View Post
After reading it, your two-cents on the value of the book would be much appreciated at my end, Sir.
Finally received and read Christopher Chivvis’s “The French War on Al Qa’ida in Africa”

The book is at the national security level in political and military issues which provides a good primer for the background of the Jihadi threatened states in Africa and history of US-French policies 2008-2013 while looking at the French approach in Mali. The book contains a general account of the military operations, but does not provide the tactical level details a professional would seek. It shares conclusions with the threads opening article on the French success with a relatively small force because of “several “natural advantages”:
--familiarity with the territory;
--jihadist support among the local population limited;
--jihadists were not well armed;
--area lack a dense jungle canopy to hide insurgent movements and cover operations;
--jihadist erred by massing forces in the open (exposed to airstrikes and justified French intervention).

Offered a good description of the different Salafi jihadist groups and levels , local/regional, operating throughout northern and central Africa.

The bibliography is built primarily on French news coverage but a few sources worth tracking down to pursue the subject, for example, Francoise Heisburg, “A Surprising Little war: First Lessons of Mali,” Survival: Global Politics and Strategy, Vol 55, No. 2, April-May, 2013 and French Defense Ministry, Mali Operation, http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operation...eration-serval.

Surprisingly, while the book is a Rand publication, the author did not reference the Rand article posted on this thread which was published two years before the book.

The greater reinforcing lesson in trying to replicate the French small force success is that each insurgency is 'situationally' dependent.

The book and the thread article are both worth the read.
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 18:08.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.