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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #46  
Old 18 Oct 16, 12:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Here one has to be careful. There's been a lot of claims about the real numbers of lynchings over the years, but one thing all historians agree on is that it didn't take too many lynchings to get the word out: that Negros were lower than whalesht on the bottom of the ocean, and that a black man's life wasn't worth a page's worth of printer's ink, much less an arrest warrant. Violence kept Southern blacks in line, and they got the message loud and clear.
True. The Klan didn't call itself the Invisible Empire for nothing;
they intended the threat to be sufficient.

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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
One also has to keep in mind that a lynching need not be a Klan event in order to advance ostensible Klan ends. Indeed, an individual may participate in a lynching without the aegis of the KKK even while he was a member. These things tended to be awfully amorphous, varying greatly from one local chapter to the next. Therefore sweeping generalizations about actual Klan activity -- despite their public rhetoric -- might easily prove inaccurate, depending on locale, era, etc.
True. The Klan was far from taking credit for acts they heard about second hand in order to inflate the terror of their name. They took credit for a lynching in Texas in 1944, despite the fact it was a crowd of blacks that did the lynching.

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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Can't speak of Chicago or Detroit, but according to Malcolm X Lansing Mich was a major Klan town: that's where Malcolm Little grew up, and he believed that his father was murdered by the Lansing Klan.
I've read that. It is a credible claim for the day.


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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I have to wonder how much of an intersection there was between Klan members and various acts of terror. For example, was Birmingham police commissioner Bull Connor actually a Klan member, or did he merely enjoy close ties to the KKK? Or did any of that make any substantive difference, as Connor was quite clear not only in his view of desegregation, but also in his willingness to investigate various acts against his city's blacks, like the bombing of churches, et al?
I believe the Klan's ability to intimidate was exploited by more than one local government back in the day. The police in that period were fewer and more poorly equipped than they are today, and there weren't nearly as many prison beds available. Brute force was a limited option. So a 'force multiplier' like the Klan was a useful asset in keeping order.
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  #47  
Old 18 Oct 16, 13:28
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There was one issue that, in my haste, I omitted from my previous post: crimes against blacks committed by whites probably weren't reported too much, or when they were they were reported inaccurately. Say a black body was fished out of a local river: the coroner's inquest would be at least as likely to rule his death an accident as it would a homicide, despite the perfect round hole in the deceased's cranium, or the bit of rope around his wrists.

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
True. The Klan didn't call itself the Invisible Empire for nothing;
they intended the threat to be sufficient.
"We're here, we're there, we're everywhere." One good lynching could cultivate several year's worth of fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
True. The Klan was far from taking credit for acts they heard about second hand in order to inflate the terror of their name. They took credit for a lynching in Texas in 1944, despite the fact it was a crowd of blacks that did the lynching.
Have you some info about that 1944 incident? You've piqued my curiosity.

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I've read that. It is a credible claim for the day.
That was the '20s, or Second Wave Klan. They really were national in that era, not just a Southern phenomenon. In a great many states one couldn't be elected to any office without the Klan's tacit nod of approval. To paraphrase Lyndon Johnson, they held "a lot of peckers in their pockets." When DC Stephenson was arrested, he threatened to out scores of elected officials as down-low Klansmen. Fortunately for humanity, Stephenson's crime was so heinous that no amount of blackmail could protect him, and the Second Wave Klan crash-and-burned with Stephenson's conviction.

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I believe the Klan's ability to intimidate was exploited by more than one local government back in the day. The police in that period were fewer and more poorly equipped than they are today, and there weren't nearly as many prison beds available. Brute force was a limited option. So a 'force multiplier' like the Klan was a useful asset in keeping order.
With regards to Bull Connor in particular, given his public statements about desegregation, the local KKK chapter wasn't merely a "force-multiplier" for his dept: his dept was the legal face of the local Klan chapter.

Wasn't that also the case in Philadelphia Mississippi, that local law enforcement was virtually indistinguishable from the local Klan? They arrested Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman, held them for a time, and released them only when the local Klan goons were ready to ambush them on the road at night?
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Last edited by slick_miester; 18 Oct 16 at 13:33.. Reason: I can't spell. D'oh!
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  #48  
Old 18 Oct 16, 13:37
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Wasn't that also the case in Philadelphia Mississippi, that local law enforcement was virtually indistinguishable from the local Klan? They arrested Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman, held them for a time, and released them only when the local Klan goons were ready to ambush them on the road at night?
That is a million-dollar question. The Sherriff was acquitted by the Feds. The key organizer was a sawmill owner who was finally sentenced in 2004, and is still in prison.

6 or 7 others were found guilty in '67 and served short sentences.
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  #49  
Old 18 Oct 16, 13:46
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
That is a million-dollar question. The Sherriff was acquitted by the Feds. The key organizer was a sawmill owner who was finally sentenced in 2004, and is still in prison.

6 or 7 others were found guilty in '67 and served short sentences.
Quote:
Cecil Ray Price (April 15, 1938 May 6, 2001) was linked to the murders of three civil rights workers in 1964. At the time of the murders, he was 26 years old and a deputy sheriff in Neshoba County, Mississippi. He was also a member of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.[2]

Although never charged with the murders Price was convicted in October 1967 of violating the civil rights of the three victims,[3] he was sentenced to a six-year prison term and served four and a half years at the Sandstone Federal Penitentiary in Minnesota. Following his release from prison he returned to Philadelphia, Mississippi and worked a variety of jobs. Cecil Price died following a fall from a piece of equipment at his job on May 6, 2001. . . . .

On the afternoon of June 21, 1964, Price stopped a blue Ford station wagon on Mississippi Highway 19 for allegedly speeding inside the Philadelphia city limits.[4] Inside the station wagon were three civil rights workers James Chaney, who was driving, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner.

Price arrested the three workers, allegedly for suspicion of having been involved in a church arson, and locked them in the county jail.[5] During this time he denied their requests for a phone call and instructed that anyone who called looking for them should be told that the three men were not there.[5] At some time during that afternoon, Price met with his fellow Klansmen to work out the details of the planned evening release and executions.[4]

Price released the three following Chaney's payment of the speeding fine and followed them in his patrol car. At 10:25, Price sped to catch up with the station wagon before it crossed the border into the relative safety of Lauderdale County. Price ordered the three out of their car and into his. He then drove them to a deserted area on Rock Cut Road while being followed by two cars filled with other Klansmen.[5] He then turned them over to fellow Klanmen who committed the beating of James Chaney and subsequent murder of the three men. Price returned to Philadelphia and resumed his duties as deputy while the bodies were being buried at an earthen dam that was under construction. . . . .

Wikipedia
The guy still incarcerated is Edgar Ray Killen, who was convicted of three counts of manslaughter under Mississippi's jurisdiction in 2005.
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  #50  
Old 18 Oct 16, 14:04
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Yeah, one deputy was definitely involved, but it was never clear if the Sherriff did anything more than turn a blind eye. He was acquitted.
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  #51  
Old 18 Oct 16, 14:13
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Yeah, one deputy was definitely involved, but it was never clear if the Sherriff did anything more than turn a blind eye. He was acquitted.
Three counts apiece of kidnapping and homicide? That's more than just "turning a blind eye." Of course, back then, I'm guessing that the legal notion of "duty of care" wasn't too well developed.
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Old 18 Oct 16, 14:17
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Three counts apiece of kidnapping and homicide? That's more than just "turning a blind eye." Of course, back then, I'm guessing that the legal notion of "duty of care" wasn't too well developed.
But innocent until proven guilty still was.

The Feds couldn't put him at the scene, nor in contact with any conspirator.

Even at the 2005 trial they couldn't.
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Old 18 Oct 16, 14:35
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But innocent until proven guilty still was.

The Feds couldn't put him at the scene, nor in contact with any conspirator.
That was one smart Redneck.

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Even at the 2005 trial they couldn't.
Naturally: he'd died of throat cancer two years earlier.

My point was, how many local law enforcement agencies were infiltrated by active Klansmen, and how often did officers so tainted . . . . impose Klan doctrine upon their hapless black charges?
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Old 18 Oct 16, 15:34
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
That was one smart Redneck.
Or just an innocent man caught up in events. He's not from New York, so we can't be sure he is guilty of something.

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My point was, how many local law enforcement agencies were infiltrated by active Klansmen, and how often did officers so tainted . . . . impose Klan doctrine upon their hapless black charges?
Klan doctrine was based on secrecy and invisibility, so the second part would be effectively zero.

As to the first part, I would say not all that much. The Klan didn't need to infiltrate. As you or someone noted, if a black wrapped in chains surfaced in the river, cause of death would simply be 'stole too much chain to swim with'. I would expect the Klan would be much more interested in positions of justice of the peace and local magistrates. You don't need the police if you have a member who can rule a death a non-homicide.
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  #55  
Old 18 Oct 16, 16:48
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Or just an innocent man caught up in events. He's not from New York, so we can't be sure he is guilty of something.
At least we can be sure that, as a Southerner, he regularly eyeballed the sheep.

Rimshot

It was rumored that the sheriff was a Klansman. I'll return to that in a moment.

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Klan doctrine was based on secrecy and invisibility, so the second part would be effectively zero.

As to the first part, I would say not all that much. The Klan didn't need to infiltrate. As you or someone noted, if a black wrapped in chains surfaced in the river, cause of death would simply be 'stole too much chain to swim with'. I would expect the Klan would be much more interested in positions of justice of the peace and local magistrates. You don't need the police if you have a member who can rule a death a non-homicide.
Emmett Till's murderers were charged and brought to trial, though predictably acquitted by a jury, so obviously the DA wasn't Klan. The Invisible Empire, much like La Cosa Nostra, works when no one knows about it -- but every one knows about it. It's like a secret that everyone shares, but never speaks aloud. Specific membership and actions remain unknown to the general population -- indeed, deliberately mysterious -- but the existence of such secret organizations -- and their propensity for violence -- is known by all members of the community. It's that known-unknown that simultaneously shields members from criminal investigation but nonetheless manages to instill fear and anxiety throughout the greater community. I'm sure you know who the gangbangers are in your neck of the woods, but the challenge is proving the leaders' membership in an ongoing criminal enterprise. These days it's far easier with RICO and similar laws, but back then, it was very difficult, if not impossible. In that respect, the sheriff remained beyond prosecution while simultaneously intimidating the Blacks and any whites who didn't approve of his conduct into silence.

So yeah, having a DA or a judge who was Klan certainly presented certain advantages, but for the sheer thrill of rousting a Negro, I'm sure that nothing could beat be a regular patrolman at oh-dark-thirty on some lonely country road. Years ago one of the NYPD officers who testified before the Mollen Commission stated that for a true sadist there's no better job than cop. Back in the day Down South, if one was a racist sadist, how close was policing to heaven?
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  #56  
Old 18 Oct 16, 18:30
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I doubt Ulstermen of Scots descent would not have considered themselves 'Micks.'
Bottom line is that Jackson has Irish heritage.

Again I praise the history of England.


As one who has Irish ancestors...I also love the fact that Jackson has Irish descent.
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Old 18 Oct 16, 18:46
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It was rumored that the sheriff was a Klansman. I'll return to that in a moment.
There's rumors of an honest New Yorker, too.


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Emmett Till's murderers were charged and brought to trial, though predictably acquitted by a jury, so obviously the DA wasn't Klan. The Invisible Empire, much like La Cosa Nostra, works when no one knows about it -- but every one knows about it. It's like a secret that everyone shares, but never speaks aloud. Specific membership and actions remain unknown to the general population -- indeed, deliberately mysterious -- but the existence of such secret organizations -- and their propensity for violence -- is known by all members of the community. It's that known-unknown that simultaneously shields members from criminal investigation but nonetheless manages to instill fear and anxiety throughout the greater community. I'm sure you know who the gangbangers are in your neck of the woods, but the challenge is proving the leaders' membership in an ongoing criminal enterprise. These days it's far easier with RICO and similar laws, but back then, it was very difficult, if not impossible. In that respect, the sheriff remained beyond prosecution while simultaneously intimidating the Blacks and any whites who didn't approve of his conduct into silence.

So yeah, having a DA or a judge who was Klan certainly presented certain advantages, but for the sheer thrill of rousting a Negro, I'm sure that nothing could beat be a regular patrolman at oh-dark-thirty on some lonely country road. Years ago one of the NYPD officers who testified before the Mollen Commission stated that for a true sadist there's no better job than cop. Back in the day Down South, if one was a racist sadist, how close was policing to heaven?
Back in those days you didn't need a badge to get away with murder. Keep in mind that in Detroit in a race riot in the early 1900s they hanged nearly 100 blacks without a single charge being levied.

For that matter, 3000 people, mostly black, have been shot so far this year in Chicago. Less than 1 in 5 of the shooters will face criminal prosecution.

Until this incident no white had been found guilty of murdering a black in that state. You didn't need anything to get away with murder.
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Old 18 Oct 16, 19:04
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Real Name: Richard Pruitt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Bottom line is that Jackson has Irish heritage.

Again I praise the history of England.


As one who has Irish ancestors...I also love the fact that Jackson has Irish descent.
The Scots that settled in Ulster claimed to be Scots, sometimes Ulster Scots. My family has a lot of branches that came from Ulster. The problem with claiming to be Irish is most people assumed you were also Catholic. That could be a big problem where saloons did not allow Dogs or Irish inside...

The Scots Irish tag an easy way to say Irish Protestant.

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Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

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  #59  
Old 18 Oct 16, 20:38
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
T Keep in mind that in Detroit in a race riot in the early 1900s they hanged nearly 100 blacks without a single charge being levied.
Do you have a cite for that? I've never heard of it and I know quite a bit of local history.
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  #60  
Old 18 Oct 16, 23:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Bottom line is that Jackson has Irish heritage.

Again I praise the history of England.


As one who has Irish ancestors...I also love the fact that Jackson has Irish descent.
Scots-Irish were Scots (from Scotland) settled in areas of Ireland (primarily Ulster) that had been depopulated of Irish by Cromwell, and then continued on to the American colonies. There was nothing Irish about them, they merely stopped in Ireland for a while.
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