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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #31  
Old 17 Oct 16, 12:06
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Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
If you look at the time line the Klan was formed in December 1865 and its terrorist activities started in 1866. Not a long time as 'just a social club'. ..
True, but that timeline hardly proves the founders' explicit intent to foment terror as a political tactic.
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  #32  
Old 17 Oct 16, 15:16
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
True, but that timeline hardly proves the founders' explicit intent to foment terror as a political tactic.
But pretty strong circumstantial evidence
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  #33  
Old 17 Oct 16, 15:39
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
But pretty strong circumstantial evidence
How long did the founders remain members after their chapter or other chapters began fomenting terror? Did the founders ever participate in violence, crime, or terror, or speak in favor of such? These are questions that I cannot answer myself, but based on some of the historical material now available, I've long been led to conclude that the KKK was initially founded as a rather innocuous fraternal organization, and evolved not too long after into the political and terror organization with which we're all more familiar today.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/kkk-founded
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Malta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klu...ert_C._1907-24
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexpe...cle/grant-kkk/

I don't know how this applied to the situation in the 1860s, but after WW2, plenty of respectable white Southerners -- despite strong views on race -- refused to have anything to do with the Klan. By the late 20th century the KKK was often viewed as a repository of "Po' White Trash," the kinds of people drank too much "moonshine" and otherwise behaved poorly in public. There did develop a Southern "citizens' movement" in the 1950s and '60s, and that's where the more respectable racists went to voice their views and influence policy, but the Klan remained the place for plebs and other lowlifes. J Edgar Hoover, for example, was a racist down to his marrow, but he hated the Klan, and thought nothing of using the FBI's considerable resources to undermine and ultimate destroy the KKK: Hoover was born into a Washington DC that was still a Southern town, and he grew up with the full slate of "respectable" Southern prejudices.
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Last edited by slick_miester; 17 Oct 16 at 15:47..
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  #34  
Old 17 Oct 16, 16:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
How long did the founders remain members after their chapter or other chapters began fomenting terror? Did the founders ever participate in violence, crime, or terror, or speak in favor of such? These are questions that I cannot answer myself, but based on some of the historical material now available, I've long been led to conclude that the KKK was initially founded as a rather innocuous fraternal organization, and evolved not too long after into the political and terror organization with which we're all more familiar today.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/kkk-founded
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Malta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klu...ert_C._1907-24
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexpe...cle/grant-kkk/

I don't know how this applied to the situation in the 1860s, but after WW2, plenty of respectable white Southerners -- despite strong views on race -- refused to have anything to do with the Klan. By the late 20th century the KKK was often viewed as a repository of "Po' White Trash," the kinds of people drank too much "moonshine" and otherwise behaved poorly in public. There did develop a Southern "citizens' movement" in the 1950s and '60s, and that's where the more respectable racists went to voice their views and influence policy, but the Klan remained the place for plebs and other lowlifes. J Edgar Hoover, for example, was a racist down to his marrow, but he hated the Klan, and thought nothing of using the FBI's considerable resources to undermine and ultimate destroy the KKK: Hoover was born into a Washington DC that was still a Southern town, and he grew up with the full slate of "respectable" Southern prejudices.
If you look it up the Klan was many times worse on the late 1860s soon after the war than it was in the c20th. It wasn't just white trash then but the old southern aristocracy carrying out and organising the killing.
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Last edited by Surrey; 17 Oct 16 at 16:59..
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  #35  
Old 17 Oct 16, 17:05
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The Ku Klux Klan was started by Nathan Bedford Forrest...a man of alleged Scottish and Irish descent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest


At the same time I'm sure it has been stated itt that Scots played a big role in the creation of the US constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotti...t#Wider_impact

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotti..._Sense_Realism

The English of course had lost the 13 colonies to the American revolutionaries. The American war of Independence has played a massive role wrt other countries declaring their Independence. And this is nothing against England, if anything English folks should be in awe of Americans for wanting the same thing that English folks have which is freedom, love, prosperity.
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  #36  
Old 17 Oct 16, 17:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
The Klan's historic headquarters is in the north (Chicago). Given that slavery was well established in the Colonies in the 1600s, and the Southern elite with of English descent, I would say that it is just another attempt to blame things on the Scots.

Not that the Scots don't deserve a lot of blame on a wide variety of areas, but this one they can dodge.
Usually "the Irish" are given the shaft. As for the " The Scots"....noyone really talks about them.


But as I have Irish and Scottish background, I am very proud of my ancestors. My ancestors took no garbage from nobody. And we also do not complain about our lot in life. Irish and Scots have stood up for what was right, and have fought and died for what is right. <---- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3ubag7dtn4
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  #37  
Old 17 Oct 16, 17:24
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The Ace; in re:
Quote:
It should also be noted that the vast majority of Scots emigrants were Highland Catholics, not exactly a prime recruiting-ground for the KKK.
That was certainly true of North Carolina prior to the American Revolution. And two regiments of Catholic Scots were enlisted in the Loyalist forces from what is today Scotland County, North Carolina, where there was even a Gaelic language newspaper. However, after the Revolution, the Scots loyalists no longer had a home and moved to Canada, and presumably the mostly Presbyterians remained. The McPhersons were a particularly notable family in the area, and one was a general in the Confederate Army.

This bit of trivia is based on N.C. State historical markers in Cumberland, Hoke, and Scotland counties, and the Moore's Creek Revolutionary War Battle site. (PS, the town of Fayetteville so recently in the news for flooding was once Campbelltown, and home for a while to Flora MacDonald, the lady who hid Bonnie Prince Charlie.)

Bluidy Scots are everywhere
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  #38  
Old 17 Oct 16, 17:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I do believe that the original KKK, as founded by John Lester and his friends, was meant to be a fraternal organization. The political and criminal activism didn't become linked with the KKK until a year or two after founding.
I agree. The history is pretty clear in that regard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I'm guessing that the donning of hoods and sheets was common to Southern vigilantes and the like during the early Reconstruction period, and became grafted onto the KKK ritual only over time.
Such robes and hoods (as masks, not pointed) were common to vigilante groups across the southwest in the 1850s until the 1880s. Often called Citizen Regulatory Groups, the dealt with issues caused by the thin spread of law enforcement during that period, with varying degrees of integrity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
It would not be accurate to think of the KKK as a single monolithic coast-to-coast organization. Throughout its century and a half, the Klan has gone through many incarnations, and with the exception of the period of DC Stephenson's leadership in the 1920s, the Klan has always been organized along local lines, and the local chapters' association has usually been loose and informal. For example, in many dry locales, membership in the Klan was desirable because only Klansmen had access to alcohol.
Pretty much.

Only about half the 150-odd lynchings in the USA have anything resembling a Klan association, and only about 25 are definitively Klan-related.

Interestingly, the worst excesses were seen in Detroit and Chicago, likewise without Klan affiliation.

Historically the Klan worked more by intimidation that anything else.
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  #39  
Old 17 Oct 16, 17:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
If you look it up the Klan was many times worse on the late 1860s soon after the war than it was in the c20th. It wasn't just white trash then but the old southern aristocracy carrying out and organising the killing.
Not true.

You are looking at less than a dozen Klan-based killings between 1867-1875, of which three were whites.

They were much more inclined towards intimidation than overt action. In the time since groups have been quick to blame every lynching and killing on the Klan, but that is wildly inaccurate.
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  #40  
Old 17 Oct 16, 17:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Point of fact: "Ku Klux" is derived from "κύκλος," or "circle" in Greek. The KKK's founders were university graduates, and their intent wasn't to instill terror in freedmen, but to restore some measure of the fraternity of their youth. Only later did the Klan develop its more sinister connotations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuklos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuklos_Adelphon

The Scots-Irish influence was certainly part-and-parcel of the US independence movement of the late 18th century, and has certainly colored 200 years of US anglophobia (think Andrew Jackson) but I don't think that Scots-Irish culture played any outsized role in the Confederate or Lost Cause movements.
Andrew Jackson...now that is a Mick I proudly stand by.

Andrew Jackson was born on March 15, 1767, to Andrew and Elizabeth Hutchinson Jackson, Scots-Irish colonists who emigrated from Ireland in 1765. Though Jackson’s birthplace is presumed to have been at one of his uncles' houses in the remote Waxhaws region that straddles North Carolina and South Carolina, the exact location is unknown since the precise border had yet to be surveyed. Jackson’s birth came just three weeks after the sudden death of his father at the age of 29.


http://www.biography.com/people/andrew-jackson-9350991
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Old 18 Oct 16, 04:05
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What Caesar actually said



He very definitely ascribed the practice to the Druids in Gaul. As I posted earlier the modern Druidic movement has nothing to do with the ancient Druids. The modern movement was invented by an Irish gentleman called John Toland in the early 18th century who wished to reintroduce pantheism as he felt that Christianity was failing.

Edit It was Octavius Caesar (Augustus) who proscribed the Druids long before the Roman occupation of Britain under Claudius.
My mistake. It's been a while. "Druidi" it is.
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Old 18 Oct 16, 04:07
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Andrew Jackson...now that is a Mick I proudly stand by.

Andrew Jackson was born on March 15, 1767, to Andrew and Elizabeth Hutchinson Jackson, Scots-Irish colonists who emigrated from Ireland in 1765. Though Jackson’s birthplace is presumed to have been at one of his uncles' houses in the remote Waxhaws region that straddles North Carolina and South Carolina, the exact location is unknown since the precise border had yet to be surveyed. Jackson’s birth came just three weeks after the sudden death of his father at the age of 29.


http://www.biography.com/people/andrew-jackson-9350991

I doubt Ulstermen of Scots descent would not have considered themselves 'Micks.'
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Old 18 Oct 16, 04:11
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So, the story that Klu Klux came from the sound of a percussion lock hammer being cocked back is myth?

Re: κύκλος- it seems to me that as a name "circle clan" is something of a tautology.
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Old 18 Oct 16, 06:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
The Ace; in re:

That was certainly true of North Carolina prior to the American Revolution. And two regiments of Catholic Scots were enlisted in the Loyalist forces from what is today Scotland County, North Carolina, where there was even a Gaelic language newspaper. However, after the Revolution, the Scots loyalists no longer had a home and moved to Canada, and presumably the mostly Presbyterians remained. The McPhersons were a particularly notable family in the area, and one was a general in the Confederate Army.

This bit of trivia is based on N.C. State historical markers in Cumberland, Hoke, and Scotland counties, and the Moore's Creek Revolutionary War Battle site. (PS, the town of Fayetteville so recently in the news for flooding was once Campbelltown, and home for a while to Flora MacDonald, the lady who hid Bonnie Prince Charlie.)

Bluidy Scots are everywhere
See my earlier posts N Carolina sources show that there was substantial settlement from protestant areas of Scotland. Scottish settlers at that time (ie post 1745) were granted land only on taking an oath to remain loyal to the crown
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Old 18 Oct 16, 11:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Such robes and hoods (as masks, not pointed) were common to vigilante groups across the southwest in the 1850s until the 1880s. Often called Citizen Regulatory Groups, the dealt with issues caused by the thin spread of law enforcement during that period, with varying degrees of integrity.
I'd think it fair to assume that the post-Civil War landscape was littered with all kinds of vagrants, wanderers, deserters, bums, and outright criminals. That kind of thing is common following any war. Add to it some four million freed slaves and you had a recipe for a lot of nastiness. DW Griffith romantically portrayed the Reconstruction-era Klan as white knights protecting the flower of Southern womanhood from Negro depredations, but in reality those doing the depredations were as likely to be white as black, and were as likely to be settled local types as they were vagrants and wanderers and whatnot, and were as likely to victimize the vagrants as they were to be victimized. Pres US Grant ordered the US Army to put an end to this vigilante crap, thus putting a clear and definitive end to the Reconstruction-era, or First Klan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Only about half the 150-odd lynchings in the USA have anything resembling a Klan association, and only about 25 are definitively Klan-related.
Here one has to be careful. There's been a lot of claims about the real numbers of lynchings over the years, but one thing all historians agree on is that it didn't take too many lynchings to get the word out: that Negros were lower than whalesht on the bottom of the ocean, and that a black man's life wasn't worth a page's worth of printer's ink, much less an arrest warrant. Violence kept Southern blacks in line, and they got the message loud and clear.

One also has to keep in mind that a lynching need not be a Klan event in order to advance ostensible Klan ends. Indeed, an individual may participate in a lynching without the aegis of the KKK even while he was a member. These things tended to be awfully amorphous, varying greatly from one local chapter to the next. Therefore sweeping generalizations about actual Klan activity -- despite their public rhetoric -- might easily prove inaccurate, depending on locale, era, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Interestingly, the worst excesses were seen in Detroit and Chicago, likewise without Klan affiliation.
Can't speak of Chicago or Detroit, but according to Malcolm X Lansing Mich was a major Klan town: that's where Malcolm Little grew up, and he believed that his father was murdered by the Lansing Klan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Historically the Klan worked more by intimidation that anything else.
I have to wonder how much of an intersection there was between Klan members and various acts of terror. For example, was Birmingham police commissioner Bull Connor actually a Klan member, or did he merely enjoy close ties to the KKK? Or did any of that make any substantive difference, as Connor was quite clear not only in his view of desegregation, but also in his willingness to investigate various acts against his city's blacks, like the bombing of churches, et al?
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