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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #16  
Old 14 Oct 16, 03:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
The klan was founded in Tennessee by six rebels of Scots and Irish decent. The name Klan is Scottish. The burning cross is Scottish. The book the clansmen was written by an American Scot.
While slavery was in the colonies in the 17th century, Scots settlers expanded it and were disproportionately involved in using slaves to farm cotton

And before you think the program was aimed at being anti Scots it was presented by a historian with a reputation of being a Scots nat.
I wonder if the 'Burning Cross' can find its origins in the pagan 'Wicker Man'?
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Old 14 Oct 16, 09:36
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The crann-tara (fiery cross) was a summoning call by the Scottish Clans to gather in the defence of the chief. It was also used by Scots settlers in Canada upon the American invasion of 1812

Whether burning of people in wicker men ever happened is difficult to say. It first appears in Roman accounts of Celtic Druidic practices but the Romans tended to use such accounts as justification for slaughtering Celts in general and Druids in particular as wicked barbarians. As the Druids forbade literacy they left no accounts of their religious practices (modern Druidism is a modern invention).
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Old 14 Oct 16, 12:31
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Back in 2002, I went on a hiking trip to Scotland on a hiking trip. We were visiting Bannockburn on the day of the annual commemoration of the battle. Many people were dressed up in their costumes and one man gave a very anti-English speech that called for independence. We both noticed that the costumes they wore bore a striking resemblance to Klan outfits.
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Old 14 Oct 16, 12:50
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Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
Back in 2002, I went on a hiking trip to Scotland on a hiking trip. We were visiting Bannockburn on the day of the annual commemoration of the battle. Many people were dressed up in their costumes and one man gave a very anti-English speech that called for independence. We both noticed that the costumes they wore bore a striking resemblance to Klan outfits.
I can think of no Scottish costumes that look like the KKK. The closest from the period of the battle would be the White Friars (Carmelites) but their houses were in London and Kent.
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Old 14 Oct 16, 12:54
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They were wearing robes/sheets and had cone hats.
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Old 14 Oct 16, 13:02
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I have seen similar costumes that were being worn during religious festivals in Spain. How they were picked up by American Southerners, I can't say. It is possible the original masks and bedsheet "robes" looked different and the modern day equivalents are mimicking the Spanish designs.

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  #22  
Old 14 Oct 16, 13:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I have seen similar costumes that were being worn during religious festivals in Spain. How they were picked up by American Southerners, I can't say. It is possible the original masks and bedsheet "robes" looked different and the modern day equivalents are mimicking the Spanish designs.

Pruitt
Penitents in Spain wore a similar costume (in the old days often before execution)

Can't think of anything like that in Scotland

http://designyoutrust.com/2014/06/70...f-bannockburn/
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  #23  
Old 14 Oct 16, 15:31
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'Celt' is not a very helpful word in relation to the population of Scotland in the C18th; only being conceived as an ethnic label in the early part of that century.

As it is, David I of Scotland in the C12th , when issuing charters, used on occasion to address the people of his kingdom as "Scots, English, Welsh and the people of Galloway.

There is a distinction to be made between the colonists coming from Scotland in the C17th and C18th, and immigrants arriving in the wake of the '45 jacobite rising and the Highland Clearances of the later C18th and C19th, under a degree of duress (not that Scotland was a bed of blubells in previous centuries).

Catholicism used to be the dominant faith in the Highlands. The observed predominance of Presbyterianism in some areas of the Western Isles today is as a result of the removal of considerable proportion of the Highland population, after the defeat of Jacobitism and the Clearances. Military recruiting played its part, too, as well as economic migration to the industrial south, where sectarian rivalry still persists today.

I don't think the 'K' in KKK was a result of ignorance; more a foreunner of the Ezi-Kleen syndrome in American branding, informed by the need for a hard 'k' in 'Klu-Klux.'

The cap of the penitentes worn in autos-da-fe and by hooded Nazareńos in Holy Week are only superficially similar to Klan robes. Perhaps as the ritual practices of the Klan evolved someone took inspiration from religious ritual Spain, but I wonder if the Catholic association would have been attractive per se.


'The Wicker Man' has nothing to do with Scotland in the real world. The ritual that inspired the film was observed by Julius Caesar (IIRC) in Gaul. There were no druids in Gaul, or Caledonia for that matter, It is a comparitively modern term from Welsh, that has been applied to the religious caste observed by the Romans in southern Britain whose cult centre was in modern North Wales.

There were of course seasonal fire festivals throughout Europe some of which, as we know, survive today.
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  #24  
Old 15 Oct 16, 08:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jf42 View Post

'The Wicker Man' has nothing to do with Scotland in the real world. The ritual that inspired the film was observed by Julius Caesar (IIRC) in Gaul. There were no druids in Gaul, or Caledonia for that matter, It is a comparitively modern term from Welsh, that has been applied to the religious caste observed by the Romans in southern Britain whose cult centre was in modern North Wales.
What Caesar actually said

Quote:
Julius Caesar described the Druids he encountered while serving as Governor of the Roman province of Gaul:

"The Druids are in charge of all religious matters, superin*tending public and private sacrifices, and explaining superstitions. A large crowd of young men, who flock to them for schooling, hold the Druids in great respect. For they have opinions to give on almost all disputes involving tribes or individuals, and if any crime is committed, any murder done, or if there is contention about a will or the boundaries of some property, they are the people who investigate the matter and establish rewards and punishments. Any individual or community that refuses to abide by their decision is excluded from the sacrifices, which is held to be the most serious punishment possible. Those thus excommuni*cated are viewed as impious criminals, they are deserted by their friends and no one will visit them or talk to them to avoid the risk of contagion from them. They are deprived of all rights in court, and they forfeit all claim to honors.

There is one arch-druid of supreme power. On his death, he is succeeded either by someone outstanding among his fellows, or, if there are several of equal caliber, the decision is reached by a vote of all the Druids, and the election is sometimes managed by force. At a fixed time of year they assemble at a holy place in the territory of the Carnutes, which is thought to be the center of Gaul. Anyone with a grievance attends and obeys the decisions and judgments which the Druids give. The general view is that this religion originated in Britain and was imported into Gaul, which means that any keen student of Druidism now goes to Britain for information. . .

The whole Gallic nation is virtually a prey to superstition, and this makes the serious invalids or those engaged in battle or dangerous exploits sacrifice men instead of animals. They even vow to immolate themselves, using the Druids as their ministers for this purpose. They feel that the spirit of the gods cannot be appeased unless a man's life is given for a life. Public sacrifices of the same sort are common. Another practice is to make images of enormous size, with the limbs woven from osiers [willows]. Living human beings are fitted into these, and, when they are set on fire, the men are engulfed in the flames and perish. The general feeling is that the immortal gods are better pleased with the sacrifice of those caught in theft, robbery or some other crime. But if a supply of such criminals is lacking, then they resort to the sacrifice of completely innocent victims. . . "
He very definitely ascribed the practice to the Druids in Gaul. As I posted earlier the modern Druidic movement has nothing to do with the ancient Druids. The modern movement was invented by an Irish gentleman called John Toland in the early 18th century who wished to reintroduce pantheism as he felt that Christianity was failing.

Edit It was Octavius Caesar (Augustus) who proscribed the Druids long before the Roman occupation of Britain under Claudius.
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  #25  
Old 15 Oct 16, 08:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I have seen similar costumes that were being worn during religious festivals in Spain. How they were picked up by American Southerners, I can't say. It is possible the original masks and bedsheet "robes" looked different and the modern day equivalents are mimicking the Spanish designs.

Pruitt
Sketches of KKK members in Topeka in 1871 show them wearing dark robes and white sacks with eye holes in them over their head
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Old 15 Oct 16, 09:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
The klan was founded in Tennessee by six rebels of Scots and Irish decent. The name Klan is Scottish.
Point of fact: "Ku Klux" is derived from "κύκλος," or "circle" in Greek. The KKK's founders were university graduates, and their intent wasn't to instill terror in freedmen, but to restore some measure of the fraternity of their youth. Only later did the Klan develop its more sinister connotations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuklos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuklos_Adelphon

The Scots-Irish influence was certainly part-and-parcel of the US independence movement of the late 18th century, and has certainly colored 200 years of US anglophobia (think Andrew Jackson) but I don't think that Scots-Irish culture played any outsized role in the Confederate or Lost Cause movements.
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Old 15 Oct 16, 10:14
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Strangely enough there may well be a druidic link

Druid societies formed as a result of Toland's work are now known as revivalist druids to distinguish them from the original Druids and the more modern variety which sprang up about 120 years ago. In Britain they were adopted by /cooperated with the Celtic/Scottish revivalist movement and at one time briefly all the rage - The Prince Regent is said to have belonged to or at least supported them. They played a part in the Scottish revival movement led by Sir Walter Scott.

Toland however had significant contacts with the Free Masonry movement in North America and a number of Druid Societies budded off from Free Mason Lodges. Some still exist today including in the South. They were known as Covens and run by a Grand Wizard (sound familiar)? In general they were also anti federalist (believing that a Federal Government would favour the established clergy). Like the Masonic Lodges they were somewhat of a secret society. The University of Virginia has produced some useful papers on the movement. A first they wore black robes with a hood but this was associated, together with the name coven in many minds with devil worship. Many members were in fact deists and some even primitive Christian and so at some time they switched to white robes and called themselves White Druids.

Given some of the similarities it's not unduly fanciful to suggest that at least some elements of the KKK came from Southern Druid Societies
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Old 15 Oct 16, 14:12
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Point of fact: "Ku Klux" is derived from "κύκλος," or "circle" in Greek. The KKK's founders were university graduates, and their intent wasn't to instill terror in freedmen, but to restore some measure of the fraternity of their youth. Only later did the Klan develop its more sinister connotations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuklos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuklos_Adelphon

The Scots-Irish influence was certainly part-and-parcel of the US independence movement of the late 18th century, and has certainly colored 200 years of US anglophobia (think Andrew Jackson) but I don't think that Scots-Irish culture played any outsized role in the Confederate or Lost Cause movements.
Correction

The original Klans objective was to carry out an insurgency to restore white supremacy in he South. Carrying out numerous murders and acts of terrorism against black people and anyone who supported the Union. They were originally and still are a terrorist group.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_K...5.E2.80.931871
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Old 17 Oct 16, 12:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
Correction

The original Klans objective was to carry out an insurgency to restore white supremacy in he South. Carrying out numerous murders and acts of terrorism against black people and anyone who supported the Union. They were originally and still are a terrorist group.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_K...5.E2.80.931871
I do believe that the original KKK, as founded by John Lester and his friends, was meant to be a fraternal organization. The political and criminal activism didn't become linked with the KKK until a year or two after founding.

Quote:
The first Klan was founded in Pulaski, Tennessee, sometime between December 1865 and August 1866 by six former members of the Confederate army[22] as a fraternal social club inspired at least in part by the then largely defunct Sons of Malta, from which parts of the initiation ceremony were borrowed, with the same purpose: "ludicrous initiations, the baffling of public curiosity, and the amusement for members were the only objects of the Klan."[23] The name is probably derived from the Greek word kuklos (κύκλος) which means circle.[24] The manual of rituals was printed by Laps D. McCord of Pulaski.[25]

According to The Cyclopędia of Fraternities (1907) "Beginning in April, 1867, there was a gradual transformation... The members had conjured up a veritable Frankenstein. They had played with an engine of power and mystery, though organized on entirely innocent lines, and found themselves overcome by a belief that something must lie behind it all—that there was, after all, a serious purpose, a work for the Klan to do."

Wikipedia
I'm guessing that the donning of hoods and sheets was common to Southern vigilantes and the like during the early Reconstruction period, and became grafted onto the KKK ritual only over time.

It would not be accurate to think of the KKK as a single monolithic coast-to-coast organization. Throughout its century and a half, the Klan has gone through many incarnations, and with the exception of the period of DC Stephenson's leadership in the 1920s, the Klan has always been organized along local lines, and the local chapters' association has usually been loose and informal. For example, in many dry locales, membership in the Klan was desirable because only Klansmen had access to alcohol.

That being said, there can be no doubt that the KKK was a genuine terrorist organization: they made plain their willingness to use armed violence in order to effect or discourage various forms of political activity. That is the very definition of terrorism.
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Old 17 Oct 16, 12:57
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I do believe that the original KKK, as founded by John Lester and his friends, was meant to be a fraternal organization. The political and criminal activism didn't become linked with the KKK until a year or two after founding.



I'm guessing that the donning of hoods and sheets was common to Southern vigilantes and the like during the early Reconstruction period, and became grafted onto the KKK ritual only over time.

It would not be accurate to think of the KKK as a single monolithic coast-to-coast organization. Throughout its century and a half, the Klan has gone through many incarnations, and with the exception of the period of DC Stephenson's leadership in the 1920s, the Klan has always been organized along local lines, and the local chapters' association has usually been loose and informal. For example, in many dry locales, membership in the Klan was desirable because only Klansmen had access to alcohol.

That being said, there can be no doubt that the KKK was a genuine terrorist organization: they made plain their willingness to use armed violence in order to effect or discourage various forms of political activity. That is the very definition of terrorism.
If you look at the time line the Klan was formed in December 1865 and its terrorist activities started in 1866. Not a long time as 'just a social club'. ..
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