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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus

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Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus Post-Soviet Russia and some neglected smaller neighbors.

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  #1  
Old 09 Oct 16, 10:36
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Putin Enacts Anti Religion Laws

http://www.newsweek.com/putin-goes-w...hurches-482730

Older story but just now heard about it. Hardliners never learn. No one has ever succeeded in persecuting a church into nonexistence. The bit about not evangelizing over the internet made me laugh. It shows how delusional Putin is over how much authority he thinks he has. Anyone trying to police the internet has failed miserably.
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  #2  
Old 09 Oct 16, 11:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
http://www.newsweek.com/putin-goes-w...hurches-482730

Older story but just now heard about it. Hardliners never learn. No one has ever succeeded in persecuting a church into nonexistence. The bit about not evangelizing over the internet made me laugh. It shows how delusional Putin is over how much authority he thinks he has. Anyone trying to police the internet has failed miserably.
It's not so much about policing the internet as having a reason to prosecute/persecute someone.
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  #3  
Old 09 Oct 16, 15:10
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Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
Anyone trying to police the internet has failed miserably.
Do you have any non-democratical examples of that?
I think autocracies/dictatorships can very easily police the internet.
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  #4  
Old 09 Oct 16, 15:49
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It has been a long-standing policy actually: to suppress administratively "non-traditional" (foreign first of all) religions and sects and to support "traditional" ones. In economy such things are called protectionist trade policy.
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Old 09 Oct 16, 18:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Do you have any non-democratical examples of that?
I think autocracies/dictatorships can very easily police the internet.
Ha! They try. Even China hasn't been able to stop internet dissent.

One has to remember: government isn't even good at stopping BAD internet practices. Malware, extortion, drug trade, and child pornography exist in the peripheries of the internet. If you can't stop something 9 out of 10 people believe is a scourge, jolly good luck trying to suppress something they actually approve of.
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Old 12 Oct 16, 09:17
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Historical ignorance and disingenous wording aside, does anyone writing these articles realise how ridiculous and outrageous does the concept of "separating the state and church" in Orthodox tradition sound?

Orthodox Churches are - national. In addition, ever since the Eastern Roman Empire, there never was total separation of church and state in Orthodox countries.

Finally, I fully understand the Russians wanting to block the obnoxious missionaries and sects that prey upon the weak and desperate and rob them or turn them against their families. This isn't primarily aimed against those unofficial Orthodox churches, but against various foreign nutcases and aggresive proselytizers.
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Old 12 Oct 16, 11:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
Historical ignorance and disingenous wording aside, does anyone writing these articles realise how ridiculous and outrageous does the concept of "separating the state and church" in Orthodox tradition sound?

Orthodox Churches are - national. In addition, ever since the Eastern Roman Empire, there never was total separation of church and state in Orthodox countries.

Finally, I fully understand the Russians wanting to block the obnoxious missionaries and sects that prey upon the weak and desperate and rob them or turn them against their families. This isn't primarily aimed against those unofficial Orthodox churches, but against various foreign nutcases and aggresive proselytizers.
Yep, it's like separating Islam from politics. But these articles, beside being propagandistic, biased and disingenous, also target a specific audience, which grew up in a big social experiment lasting for two and a half centuries wrapped in a big bubble. Unless they get proper education in history and religion of other nations, they will never be able to understand the ways other societies are organised. As this is not gonna happen, they will keep applying their own yardstick to others in a Procrustean way. And of course, their "free" media will properly direct and channel their "noble rage" so that the bedfellows of their elite (Gulf States, for example) would not get too much flak for infinitely greater limitations on religious and political freedoms.
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  #8  
Old 12 Oct 16, 12:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
Finally, I fully understand the Russians wanting to block the obnoxious missionaries and sects
Not just Russians but the government and top brass of major religions who have some clear-cut interests here. The first wants a political support from loyal religious leaders and the last want to prohibit or limit proselytism. As I've said this policy didn't start yesterday but has quite a history.
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  #9  
Old 12 Oct 16, 13:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
http://www.newsweek.com/putin-goes-w...hurches-482730

Older story but just now heard about it. Hardliners never learn. No one has ever succeeded in persecuting a church into nonexistence. The bit about not evangelizing over the internet made me laugh. It shows how delusional Putin is over how much authority he thinks he has. Anyone trying to police the internet has failed miserably.
Using Newsweek as source ? Why not CNN ?
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Old 12 Oct 16, 13:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Do you have any non-democratical examples of that?
I think autocracies/dictatorships can very easily police the internet.
How?

It would seem to be a massive amount of work with few returns.
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Old 12 Oct 16, 15:20
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And of course, it should be remembered that radical Islam sects were in vanguard of terrorism in Russia, so government's desire to control religious activity is understandable.
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Old 12 Oct 16, 18:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
And of course, it should be remembered that radical Islam sects were in vanguard of terrorism in Russia, so government's desire to control religious activity is understandable.
Controlling extremist activity, yes. Controlling all activity is major overkill.
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Old 18 Aug 17, 10:57
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Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses as 'extremist'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ses-extremist/
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Old 19 Aug 17, 06:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
http://www.newsweek.com/putin-goes-w...hurches-482730

Older story but just now heard about it. Hardliners never learn. No one has ever succeeded in persecuting a church into nonexistence.

Spanish inquisición and wars of religion were complete successes
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Old 04 Sep 17, 02:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
Yep, it's like separating Islam from politics. But these articles, beside being propagandistic, biased and disingenous, also target a specific audience, which grew up in a big social experiment lasting for two and a half centuries wrapped in a big bubble.
That might be the view from inside Russia.

The bubble is currently the dominant political system of the world. Russia is somehow technically part of it, if one looks at the formal machinery of the Russian state, except everyone knows the contents don't match what it says of the label. Given attitudes like yours, that's probably a good thing since Russians seem to actively disapprove of their own political system as currently formulated.

So, regardless of how the Russian system of government is formally claimed to work, the de facto situation — according to which most of the world can be flippantly dismissed as a "bubble" — aligns Russia primarily with China, big parts of Africa, and the Middle East. And that's about it.

Of course, these days the enemies of the free and open society are emboldened, because the US/UK nutty idea of neoliberalism as an economic system has played merry hell with in particular those two societies. Which is then taken to indicate that its the system of government that is at fault, not the extent to which THAT attack on it has been successful. (There's a US brand of conservatism that opposes freedom and democracy, since it narrowly defines freedom as owning property and being allowed to do anything you can afford, screw laws and the rest of society, meaning the preferred political system is representative of property, not of citizens. Come to think of it, Russians might already have experience of that, except in an informal setting.)

But the only real challenge to it really is China, since the CCP is working very hard to try to prove that technological development and modern economic success can be achieved without having to allow representative government with its brand of civil liberties or political rights. I guess Russia can be the second country to try that experiment if it wishes? (After Venezuela perhaps.) Since clearly it's unhappy with being-a-republic-based-on-representative-government-except-it-actually-isn't? At least changing the label to match the actual contents has merit.
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