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  #31  
Old 08 Sep 16, 02:19
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I have heard of using shallow dives and also something on the water called "skip bombing". The Corsair did not have the special dive brakes that a dive bomber had so high angle dives are out. Also it depends what munition is being used. Rockets would be pretty much aim and shoot.

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  #32  
Old 08 Sep 16, 02:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Both the Corsair and Hellcat were truly excellent aircraft. However, the fighter that did the business against veteran Japanese pilots, and won, is the Wildcat. By the time the Corsair and Hellcat were in business, the Japanese were using boys to fly their planes. No wonder they got knocked out of the sky.
Veteran Japanese Naval pilots? Just what made them more veteran than their American counter parts other than some ground attacks they mostly had no air to air combat time. imo they were equal veterans.
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  #33  
Old 08 Sep 16, 04:18
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  #34  
Old 08 Sep 16, 04:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
True



It's so quiet because the exhaust is pushed through the turbochargers, losing most of its energy in the process. These act almost like very efficient mufflers. The plane is quiet, all you need do is listen to one in flight. The P-40 with the same engine and stub exhausts isn't.
And if you'd read post 25 you'd see I've already said this.
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  #35  
Old 08 Sep 16, 04:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
One thing the video missed - not only did the FAA develop the technique of the curving approach to the carrier but they also pioneered the bulged cockpit canopy as they raised the pilot's seat to give him a better view over the nose. With this they were able to operate it even from escort carriers in atrocious weather conditions. IIRC the last RN VC of the war was won by an FAA pilot in a Corsair attacking a Japanese destroyer off the coast of Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLeonard View Post
Sorry, but these are just quaint internet urban legends.

All, yes, all of them, all 19 of the FAA F4U squadrons accepted their aircraft and trained in the US for an average of about three months. All of them carrier qualified in US waters on US carriers and all this training was accomplished with USN instructors. Check the FAA records.

Bubble canopies? Vought was already planning on raising the pilot’s seat, first 6, then to 8 inches, before the first US squadrons were ready to deploy; this meant a new, bubble-type, canopy. Vought was, in fact, already installing the improved canopy by the end of 1942. The first FAA squadron destined for F4Us, 1830, arrived in June 1943; F4U-1As were already coming off the line.

<SNIP>
As MarkV has suggested, I would agree that the curved approach was a Fleet Air Arm innovation, but such a technique was introduced to "tame" the difficult landing characteristics of the Supermarine Seafire.

The necessity to do the same with the Corsair came somewhat later, well after the Seafire was in regular service with the FAA.

Quote:

Landing the Seafire

(image caption - see link)

Seafire Mk. IIC captured a moment before landing on an aircraft deck.

Due to the nil visibility over the nose of the aircraft, landing the Seafire required a difficult curved approach, with canopy slid back, cockpit door unlatched to block the hood in the open position and the pilot sticking his head out at the port side of the windscreen to keep the glimpse of the carrier in view.
Deck landings were directed, from half-way through the turn, by the batsman who, aided with two bats and significant portion of body language, indicated to the pilot if the aircraft was at the right height, speed, angle and position in the turn. Batsmen were always experienced pilots. Directing the aircraft from a platform at the port side of the flight deck, the batsman was assisted by two “talkers” behind him, who kept him continually informed of events on the flight deck and in the circuit.
Deck landings on a Seafire were difficult. Far more Seafires were lost through operational accidents than ever fell to enemy fire.
http://spitfiresite.com/2009/12/land...e-seafire.html

Quote:
The first carrier trials were conducted by RN Fighter School commanding officer Lieutenant Commander H. P. Bramwell aboard HMS Illustrious in late 1941.

Test conditions were not ideal: HMS Illustrious had suffered bow and flight deck damage in a collision with HMS Formidable as the pair had returned from the United States following extensive battle-damage repair work.

His report had immediate implications for the future of the Seafire program: The long nose of the nimble fighter had forced him to use an “unorthodox” landing approach technique which would allow him to see the flight deck until the very last moment.
He developed a "straight in", but "cross controlled" approach.

Right rudder/opposite(left) aileron, which swings the nose to the right whilst dipping the left wing allowing an unobstructed view past the nose on the port side.

This method was deemed too difficult for regular FAA service pilots, but I can't see why, as it is a technique similar to that used in routine cross wind landings.

When I was learning to fly light aircraft(Robin R2160) in the late 1980's I became quite familiar with this technique which was ideal for losing height quickly in the event of a simulated engine failure excercise, and allowing a rapid descent into an area chosen for an emergency landing rather than overrunning the chosen field and having to attempt to reverse course and land with a tail wind.

More information about the development of Seafire landing techniques following on from Lt. Cdr. Bramwell's initial input, including procedures developed by Capt. Eric "Winkle" Brown for use on smaller escort type carriers here:

http://www.armouredcarriers.com/seafire-development/

From the same source:

Quote:
There was no question of adopting the crabbed approach with the Sea Hurricane as was later to be developed for the Seafire to improve forward vision. The use of rudder on the approach in the Sea Hurricane produced a considerable increase in nose-heaviness which was quite unacceptable in this delicate situation, so it was a straight approach or nothing and the inadequate view forward simply had to be accepted.

— Captain Eric Brown: Wings of the Navy
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Last edited by At ease; 08 Sep 16 at 05:35..
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  #36  
Old 08 Sep 16, 08:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Both the Corsair and Hellcat were truly excellent aircraft. However, the fighter that did the business against veteran Japanese pilots, and won, is the Wildcat. By the time the Corsair and Hellcat were in business, the Japanese were using boys to fly their planes. No wonder they got knocked out of the sky.
I note that you have made similar statements before in other threads and they are at odds with the sentiments expressed by pilots such as "Jimmy" Thatch.

Quote:
Tactical Lesson of Midway: The Thach Weave
[.....]

The story of the fighter escort for the torpedo bombers and dive bombers from the carriers, with the exception of that concerning the Yorktown’s group, was altogether dismal. Indeed, the small number of fighters from VF-3 that attempted to cover VT-3’s attack on the morning of 4 June had found the Americans overwhelmed by the Zeroes. The only silver lining was the survival of most American fighters, a result owed in part to the successful implementation of the “beam defense” tactic of Lt. Comdr. John S. “Jimmy” Thach (of Yorktown’s VF-3), a tactic later named the “Thach Weave” in his honor.

“It is indeed surprising,” Jimmy Thach wrote on the evening of 4 June 1942, “that any of our pilots returned alive. Any success our fighter pilots may have against the Japanese Zero fighter is not [Thach’s italics] due to the performance of the airplane we fly [the Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat] but is the result of the comparatively poor marksmanship of the Japanese, stupid mistakes made by a few of their pilots and superior marksmanship and team work of some of our pilots. The only way we can ever bring our guns to bear on the Zero fighter is to trick them into recovering in front of an F4F or shoot them when they are preoccupied in firing at one of our own planes.” Thach warned that unless the Wildcat’s performance was improved, the F4F pilots could not carry out their mission, which would have a “definite and alarming effect on the morale of most of our carrier based VF [fighter] pilots. If we expect to keep our carriers afloat,” he concluded, “we must provide a VF airplane superior to the Japanese Zero in at least climb and speed, if not maneuverability.”
[.....]

The problem was that on 4 June 1942, and for some time thereafter, there was no way to improve the performance of the F4F. The Vought F4U Corsair and the Grumman F6F Hellcat were under development, but a long time away from equipping first-line carriers. Admiral Nimitz, in reviewing Thach’s comments, noted an important distinction: in the Battle of Midway, the Japanese fighters outnumbered the American. Finding that 27 fighters (a temporary expedient) proved too few, the fighter strength was increased to 36. “If the F4Fs were not equal to Zeros on a one-to-one basis,” historian John B. Lundstrom has noted in his magnificent work The First Team, “Nimitz at least would see to it that there were more F4F-4s available to fight.”
[.....]
http://usnhistory.navylive.dodlive.mil/?p=7314

It was numbers and superior tactics that allowed the experienced cadre of US Navy and Marine pilots to survive against similarly experienced Japanese pilots until better equipment came along, not the superior performance of the Wildcat.

More comments and material may be found by visiting the following Google book link:

The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway

By John B. Lundstrom

Chapter 18

Midway Lessons - The F4F Controversy

Quote:
If the F4F-4's were not equal to Zeros on a one - to - one basis, Nimitz at least would see to it there were more F4F-4's available to fight.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...0enemy&f=false

I believe it was Vladimir Lenin who said:

Quantity has a quality all its own.

VLADIMIR LENIN, attributed, How to Make War

Some of the text, following on from Thatch's comments, is reproduced below in attachments 1 & 2.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wildcat 1.jpg (55.5 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Wildcat 2.jpg (87.5 KB, 4 views)
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Last edited by At ease; 08 Sep 16 at 09:05..
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  #37  
Old 08 Sep 16, 09:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
One thing the video missed - the FAA[.....] also pioneered the bulged cockpit canopy as they raised the pilot's seat to give him a better view over the nose. With this they were able to operate it even from escort carriers in atrocious weather conditions. [.....]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLeonard View Post
Sorry, but these are just quaint internet urban legends.

[.....]
Bubble canopies? Vought was already planning on raising the pilot’s seat, first 6, then to 8 inches, before the first US squadrons were ready to deploy; this meant a new, bubble-type, canopy. Vought was, in fact, already installing the improved canopy by the end of 1942. The first FAA squadron destined for F4Us, 1830, arrived in June 1943; F4U-1As were already coming off the line.
[.....]
What RLeonard says in respect to Corsair canopies and raised seating is true(according to my source).

Whilst I can't cut and paste(downloaded book format won't let me) the pertinent text from the following very reliable source written by the Corsair's cheif test pilot:


Whistling Death: The Test Pilot's Story of the F4U Corsair Hardcover – September 1, 1994

by Boone T. Guyton

https://www.amazon.com/Whistling-Dea.../dp/0887407323

I can verify that it agrees with RLeonard - I have my own complete PDF copy courtesy of my favourite free ebook site.

Following page 176 there is a photo with a caption that reads:

Quote:
Another factory shot taken in 1942. These Corsairs sport an early version of the bubble canopy that replaced the vision restricting squirrel cage.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Guyton.jpg (42.0 KB, 1 views)
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  #38  
Old 08 Sep 16, 09:51
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However, I am not sure why the issue of first bubble canopy was originally raised(sic) with respect to the Corsair, as the first production item raised canopy appeared on early versions of the Spitfire which reached operational service way before the Corsair even had it's first flight.

Quote:
Supermarine Spitfire variants

The Initial Merlin-Powered Line
[.....]
Following complaints from pilots which required more headroom, a new form of “blown” canopy was manufactured and started replacing the original “straight” version in early 1939. This canopy improved headroom and enabled better vision laterally and to the rear.
[.....]
Many Spitfires in the Mk V [.....] family used main wheels which had a removable disc type hub fitted.
[.....]
Two new “blown” cockpit canopies were introduced(in the Mk V series) in an effort to further increase the pilot’s head-room and visibility.
[.....]

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/supe...ered-line.html

An example of a superbly restored Spitfire Mk V (with many detailed photos) can be seen here:

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anat...e-cockpit.html

Caption: "Head-on view of the sliding hood reveals its cross-section as well as a curvature of its sides."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Canopy.jpg (72.3 KB, 1 views)
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  #39  
Old 08 Sep 16, 10:39
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It should be noted, however, that the genesis of bulged canopies resides in the fertile brain of Sidney Cotton of "Sidcot" flying suit fame.

Quote:
[.....]
Cotton invented the teardrop window which he fitted in place of the Lockheed's side cockpit window. The Triplex company manufactured about 100,000 of these windows during the war but Cotton claimed no royalties as they were fitted only to military aircraft.
[.....]
http://www.adastron.com/lockheed/electra/sidcotton.htm

He was a maverick Australian born aviation pioneer and raconteur, who also flew the last civilian aircraft out of Berlin before war was declared in 1939.

He was taking surreptitious pictures of airfields and military facilities as he was traversing German airspace -as he had been doing for a time before this even with Luftwaffe Gen. Erhard Milch aboard.

https://www.amazon.com/Sidney-Cotton.../dp/0733615163

+1 to "Gooner" for being the first @ACG to mention this very important, but very little known about, pioneer.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...9&postcount=11


58 minute documentary film by the book author Jeffrey Watson

http://viewlorium.com/the-last-plane-out-of-berlin/
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cotton Canopy.jpg (26.3 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Sidney Cotton.jpg (7.6 KB, 1 views)
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  #40  
Old 08 Sep 16, 11:46
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Quote:
who also flew the last civilian aircraft out of Berlin before war was declared in 1939.
Didn't German civilian aircraft continue to fly out of Berlin?
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  #41  
Old 08 Sep 16, 12:14
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I wasn't there at the time, and I can't begin to think where to check for movements records if there were any, but I am relying on the say so of the author Jeffrey Watson who is a prolific and very well respected Australian aviation media presenter and historian.

Quote:
Jeff Watson is a broadcaster, author, journalist and documentary producer with 40 years in the business. Best known as a presenter on Beyond 2000 which was seen in most countries including the United States and the USSR, Jeff Watson has also contributed to This Day Tonight, Four Corners, Towards 2000 (a program which he devised in 1979), Holiday, Sixty Minutes, Beyond 2000 and Getaway.
[.....]

Jeff Watson recently produced two highly successful aviation programmes for Channel 7 and The History Channel, entitled The Boneyard and The Shape Of Things To Come. Other documentaries produced by Jeff Watson include: Spitfire Over Australia (ABC), Curtiss Kittyhawk and The Ansett Story (Nine network and Discovery USA), Classic Aeroplanes in Australia (Discovery USA), The RAAF 70th Anniversary (Nine Network), Qantas 50 Years of QF-1 (Nine Network), and Veterans Return and Ghost Squadron (ABC) and The Last Plane Out of Berlin (ABC).

Jeff Watson was executive producer of The World Tonight program with Clive Robertson and presented a weekly segment on classic cars, My Car, which later emerged as the documentary, Classic Cars in Australia. In 2001, Jeff Watson was the motoring and aviation editor of Channel 9's Today programme.
[.....]
http://www.celebrityspeakers.com.au/jeffrey-watson/

I last read the book in 2006 from memory so I am not in a position to find the exact passage that would mention the circumstances, but I think he knows what he is talking about.
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  #42  
Old 08 Sep 16, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
According to Agelluci and Bowers "The American fighter" the F4U-1A was the first variant to have the raised one piece canopy. This was a version produced specially for the FAA and the RNZAF and differed from the F4U-1 in a number of other less obvious respects. According to Thetford "British Naval Aircraft since 1912" these changes were made at the behest of the FAA.

BTW both books predate the Internet as we know ii.
Whilst my earlier posts suggest that the canopy modifications were not the result of FAA input, a modification that was made at the request of the FAA was the removal of 8 inches from each wingtip to allow the Corsair to fold it's wings and give clearance to the roof when struck below into the hangar deck.

I'm too tired now to look up those sources I have seen confirming this - but I am sure you can do this if in any doubt.
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  #43  
Old 08 Sep 16, 12:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
However, I am not sure why the issue of first bubble canopy was originally raised(sic) with respect to the Corsair, as the first production item raised canopy appeared on early versions of the Spitfire which reached operational service way before the Corsair even had it's first flight.



http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/supe...ered-line.html

An example of a superbly restored Spitfire Mk V (with many detailed photos) can be seen here:

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anat...e-cockpit.html

Caption: "Head-on view of the sliding hood reveals its cross-section as well as a curvature of its sides."
Some of the Corsair 1s delivered to the FAA under Lease Lend were modified by having a Malcolm style hood fitted (by the FAA). There is a small photo in vol 4 of Warplanes of the Second World War (Green. These were sufficiently successful that when the next batch were ordered a bubble hood was specified, This was a single piece hood made in the USA and more bubbled than the Malcolm. These aircraft also incorporated the other mods made by the FAA to the Corsair I and were the FU4 -1A and most of the changes subsequently became standard.
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  #44  
Old 08 Sep 16, 12:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Some of the Corsair 1s delivered to the FAA under Lease Lend were modified by having a Malcolm style hood fitted (by the FAA). There is a small photo in vol 4 of Warplanes of the Second World War (Green. These were sufficiently successful that when the next batch were ordered a bubble hood was specified, This was a single piece hood made in the USA and more bubbled than the Malcolm. These aircraft also incorporated the other mods made by the FAA to the Corsair I and were the FU4 -1A and most of the changes subsequently became standard.
It is hardly significant, as I have already pointed out that Spitfires had raised hoods from 1939 and hoods of a similar configuration had been incorporated on the US production line since late 1942 - well before Corsairs being introduced into service by the FAA.

You might like to go to the trouble of attempting to upload any photographs that you have access to proving that the canopy styles used by the FAA were materially different to other versions.
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  #45  
Old 08 Sep 16, 13:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
I note that you have made similar statements before in other threads and they are at odds with the sentiments expressed by pilots such as "Jimmy" Thatch.


http://usnhistory.navylive.dodlive.mil/?p=7314

It was numbers and superior tactics that allowed the experienced cadre of US Navy and Marine pilots to survive against similarly experienced Japanese pilots until better equipment came along, not the superior performance of the Wildcat.

More comments and material may be found by visiting the following Google book link:

The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway

By John B. Lundstrom

Chapter 18

Midway Lessons - The F4F Controversy


https://books.google.com.au/books?id...0enemy&f=false

I believe it was Vladimir Lenin who said:

Quantity has a quality all its own.

VLADIMIR LENIN, attributed, How to Make War

Some of the text, following on from Thatch's comments, is reproduced below in attachments 1 & 2.
The problem was one of tactics. Once sorted, the Wildcat wrested the skies away from the Japanese. The Wildcat could fly higher and as fast as the Zero. It also had a greater dive speed. In the attack, as long as the F4F simply attacked from above, and carried on diving until out of harms way, the US pilot was safe. In defense, as you have noted, the Thatch Weave could be employed, a tactic the unarmoured Zero could not copy.

What the Wildcat could not do was dogfight with a Zero, which was initial inclination of most US pilots, and where the initial opinion of the F4F comes from.
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