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  #16  
Old 05 Sep 16, 18:56
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Both the Corsair and Hellcat were truly excellent aircraft. However, the fighter that did the business against veteran Japanese pilots, and won, is the Wildcat. By the time the Corsair and Hellcat were in business, the Japanese were using boys to fly their planes. No wonder they got knocked out of the sky.
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  #17  
Old 05 Sep 16, 20:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Same goes with the term, Devils in Baggy Pants supposedly givevto the US airborne by the Germans. Have you ever seen how baggy the German airborne units were dressed?

All a bunch of feel good war time propaganda.
I have heard that "Devil Dogs," supposedly given to the Marines by the WWI Germans was also made up.

However, the Texas Rangers were definitely known as "los Tejanos Diablos" during and after the Mexican War and the Indians called the Black troops of the 9th and 10th US Cavalry "Buffalo Soldiers." I suspect the derogatory names are the real ones.
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  #18  
Old 06 Sep 16, 23:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
. . . not only did the FAA develop the technique of the curving approach to the carrier but they also pioneered the bulged cockpit canopy as they raised the pilot's seat to give him a better view over the nose. With this they were able to operate it even from escort carriers in atrocious weather conditions.
Sorry, but these are just quaint internet urban legends.

All, yes, all of them, all 19 of the FAA F4U squadrons accepted their aircraft and trained in the US for an average of about three months. All of them carrier qualified in US waters on US carriers and all this training was accomplished with USN instructors. Check the FAA records.

Bubble canopies? Vought was already planning on raising the pilotís seat, first 6, then to 8 inches, before the first US squadrons were ready to deploy; this meant a new, bubble-type, canopy. Vought was, in fact, already installing the improved canopy by the end of 1942. The first FAA squadron destined for F4Us, 1830, arrived in June 1943; F4U-1As were already coming off the line.

A USN naval aviator of that vintage of my acquaintance first flew the F4U-1 at San Diego on November 3, 1943, after returning from a tour in the Solomons in VF-11 flying F4Fs (his first F6F flight was at Espiritu Santo on 14 July 1943, in a plane borrowed from VF-33 as the squadrons crossed paths to and from the combat area . . . another story for later). Upon return to the states he became director of fighter training at ComFAirWest where he was flying at least every other day, F6Fs, FMs, F4Us, even the occasional SBD, and sometimes three or four flights a day. Working from his pilotís log book, his first flight in an F4U-1A (you know the one with the bubble canopy) was on 31 January 1944. After a couple of FCLP flights in the preceding days, his first actual carrier landing in an F4U, a -1A, was on February 24, 1944 aboard the CVE, USS Altamaha. He would always say that the way to land the F4U on a carrier was obvious to anyone with any experience (he earned his wings in November 1940 and was already an ace). The shape of the plane, the position of and view from the cockpit, the need to keep the LSO in sight led one naturally to use wide and side approach, straightening out only at the last few seconds.

Still another naval aviator of my acquaintance, one of the leaders in VF-12, an early USN F4U squadron (the members of which were outraged when they had to turn their F4Us over to the local CASU and draw F6Fs for the air groupís first deployment), told me pretty much the same thing, the technique was obvious and was what they taught their pilots.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing but admiration for the FAA, a gallant group that carried on, sometimes in the face of monumental disappointments in terms of equipment, and really did pioneer great advances in carrier aviation (angle decks and fresnel light landing systems come to mind . . . though rubber flight decks leave me head scratching). That same naval aviator in the long paragraph above thought the world of those FAA and other RN folks he worked over his career, amongst those he numbered Winkle Brown with whom he was stationed at NAS Patuxent and Charles Owens who was the liaison officer with TF-38 at the end of the war.
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  #19  
Old 07 Sep 16, 00:31
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Originally Posted by Desiree Clary View Post
I have heard that "Devil Dogs," supposedly given to the Marines by the WWI Germans was also made up.

However, the Texas Rangers were definitely known as "los Tejanos Diablos" during and after the Mexican War and the Indians called the Black troops of the 9th and 10th US Cavalry "Buffalo Soldiers." I suspect the derogatory names are the real ones.
Devil Dogs was given by an American news paper reporter.

http://german.about.com/od/culture/a/germyth13.htm

The Marines fought very well in Europe, no doubt about it but the Germans didn't call them devil dogs.
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  #20  
Old 07 Sep 16, 00:52
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The closest I've heard an actual aircraft come to that description is the P-38. It sounds like a sewing machine. Very quiet plane. It's not like the Corsair or Beaufighter. Those have noisy, loud exhaust sounds.
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  #21  
Old 07 Sep 16, 05:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLeonard View Post
Sorry, but these are just quaint internet urban legends.
According to Agelluci and Bowers "The American fighter" the F4U-1A was the first variant to have the raised one piece canopy. This was a version produced specially for the FAA and the RNZAF and differed from the F4U-1 in a number of other less obvious respects. According to Thetford "British Naval Aircraft since 1912" these changes were made at the behest of the FAA.

BTW both books predate the Internet as we know ii.
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  #22  
Old 07 Sep 16, 05:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The closest I've heard an actual aircraft come to that description is the P-38. It sounds like a sewing machine. Very quiet plane.
Another probable example of nick name more likely bestowed by the press than the enemy. I've see the "Fork tailed devil" appellation credited to both the Germans and the Japanese. For one thing it seems highly unlikely that the two nations would come up with the same nick name.

In line liquid cooled engines are in general quieter than radial air cooled ones if only because the latter have to be open to the air and therefore the sound is not muted by any housing.
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  #23  
Old 07 Sep 16, 07:20
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Another probable example of nick name more likely bestowed by the press than the enemy. I've see the "Fork tailed devil" appellation credited to both the Germans and the Japanese. For one thing it seems highly unlikely that the two nations would come up with the same nick name.

In line liquid cooled engines are in general quieter than radial air cooled ones if only because the latter have to be open to the air and therefore the sound is not muted by any housing.
While there is a small amount of engine noise attributable to a lack of water jacket, most can be blamed on the exhaust system. In-line engines have the advantage of being able to vent to a common expansion chamber easily. Radial engines require more complicated plumbing to achieve this., hence shorter exhausts with little or no muffling.
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  #24  
Old 07 Sep 16, 07:34
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http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/aircraft/Corsair.htm

Also has the Japanese giving the F4U the name, which I seriously doubt.
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Old 07 Sep 16, 08:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
While there is a small amount of engine noise attributable to a lack of water jacket, most can be blamed on the exhaust system. In-line engines have the advantage of being able to vent to a common expansion chamber easily. Radial engines require more complicated plumbing to achieve this., hence shorter exhausts with little or no muffling.
I wasn't referring to a water jacket - the engines in WW2 were rarely water cooled anyway but used glycol or similar. On line engine installations are normally completely enclosed air cooled radials cannot be. The point about mufflers (silencers) does not really apply to most aircraft. look at most Merlin and Griffon installations and Allison too in WW2 - rows of short stubby exhausts no silencer. The P38 also had no silencers but the way the the super chargers were installed and used exhaust gases to drive the turbines partly muffled the exhaust noise
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  #26  
Old 07 Sep 16, 16:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLeonard View Post
Sorry, but these are just quaint internet urban legends.

All, yes, all of them, all 19 of the FAA F4U squadrons accepted their aircraft and trained in the US for an average of about three months. All of them carrier qualified in US waters on US carriers and all this training was accomplished with USN instructors. Check the FAA records.

Bubble canopies? Vought was already planning on raising the pilotís seat, first 6, then to 8 inches, before the first US squadrons were ready to deploy; this meant a new, bubble-type, canopy. Vought was, in fact, already installing the improved canopy by the end of 1942. The first FAA squadron destined for F4Us, 1830, arrived in June 1943; F4U-1As were already coming off the line.

A USN naval aviator of that vintage of my acquaintance first flew the F4U-1 at San Diego on November 3, 1943, after returning from a tour in the Solomons in VF-11 flying F4Fs (his first F6F flight was at Espiritu Santo on 14 July 1943, in a plane borrowed from VF-33 as the squadrons crossed paths to and from the combat area . . . another story for later). Upon return to the states he became director of fighter training at ComFAirWest where he was flying at least every other day, F6Fs, FMs, F4Us, even the occasional SBD, and sometimes three or four flights a day. Working from his pilotís log book, his first flight in an F4U-1A (you know the one with the bubble canopy) was on 31 January 1944. After a couple of FCLP flights in the preceding days, his first actual carrier landing in an F4U, a -1A, was on February 24, 1944 aboard the CVE, USS Altamaha. He would always say that the way to land the F4U on a carrier was obvious to anyone with any experience (he earned his wings in November 1940 and was already an ace). The shape of the plane, the position of and view from the cockpit, the need to keep the LSO in sight led one naturally to use wide and side approach, straightening out only at the last few seconds.

Still another naval aviator of my acquaintance, one of the leaders in VF-12, an early USN F4U squadron (the members of which were outraged when they had to turn their F4Us over to the local CASU and draw F6Fs for the air groupís first deployment), told me pretty much the same thing, the technique was obvious and was what they taught their pilots.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing but admiration for the FAA, a gallant group that carried on, sometimes in the face of monumental disappointments in terms of equipment, and really did pioneer great advances in carrier aviation (angle decks and fresnel light landing systems come to mind . . . though rubber flight decks leave me head scratching). That same naval aviator in the long paragraph above thought the world of those FAA and other RN folks he worked over his career, amongst those he numbered Winkle Brown with whom he was stationed at NAS Patuxent and Charles Owens who was the liaison officer with TF-38 at the end of the war.
Then perhaps he had respect for Eric Brown when he had this to say:

"The Corsair was a mixture of the good, the mediocre and the bad. It had excellent acceleration, speed and firepower, and was rugged in construction. Its slow speed characteristics left much to be desired. Manoueverability was mediocre from the point of dogfighting but it had a good rate of roll that could be used to advantage defensively. In summary, as a fighter the Corsair was a formidable aircraft to introduce into the Pacific but as a shipboard aircraft it had serious shortcomings. "

And can I ask why the British were using the Corsair successfully on carrier operations months before the US? And have you proof that it wasn't an FAA innovation on deck landing?

The same as FAA pilots were trained to fly their Corsairs (and other types) by US instructors. So too were U.S Pilots trained by the RAF on British types with the bonus of U.S fighter pilots being trained in fighter/fighter-bomber tactics by experienced RAF/Commonwealth personnel.

As a summary, Britain/Commonwealth and the U.S scratched each others backs.

Paul
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  #27  
Old 07 Sep 16, 16:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Then perhaps he had respect for Eric Brown when he had this to say:

"The Corsair was a mixture of the good, the mediocre and the bad. It had excellent acceleration, speed and firepower, and was rugged in construction. Its slow speed characteristics left much to be desired. Manoueverability was mediocre from the point of dogfighting but it had a good rate of roll that could be used to advantage defensively. In summary, as a fighter the Corsair was a formidable aircraft to introduce into the Pacific but as a shipboard aircraft it had serious shortcomings. "

And can I ask why the British were using the Corsair successfully on carrier operations months before the US? And have you proof that is wasn't an FAA innovation on deck landing?

The same as FAA pilots were trained to fly their Corsairs (and other types) by US instructors. So too were U.S Pilots trained by the RAF on British types with the bonus of U.S fighter pilots being trained in fighter/fighter-bomber tactics by experienced RAF/Commonwealth personnel.

As a summary, Britain/Commonwealth and the U.S scratched each others backs.

Paul
See my post 21 in this thread for supporting sources for it being an FAA concept

The FAA seem to have been the only force to have developed techniques to fly the things off small escort carriers
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  #28  
Old 08 Sep 16, 00:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
All indications are that this was just propaganda, as are the vast majority of nicknames claimed to have been given by enemy forces to aircraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
The story of the Japanese calling it the Whistling Death can be traced back as far as Time magazine , October 1943;



But no account is given as to how the writer knew this and I doubt that the Japanese were giving interviews to Time at this date. There are unsubstantiated claims that this was originally a nickname given to it by American workers at Chance Vought's testing field.

The appellation of Whispering Death to the Beaufighter has a similar provenance apparently first appearing in a British news paper in May 1943
Below is an admittedly very brief account of the origin of the "Whistling Death" moniker, but at least it comes from Alfred I. Sibila, a reasonably senior member of the original design team from the Corsair's inception:

From the US Naval Institute magazine 02/1995 issue

Quote:
Designing the Bent-Wing Bird

Few airplanes in the history of aviation have a design feature as distinctive as the legendary F4U Corsair's inverted gull wing. It has intrigued World War II aircraft buffs for more than half acentury. Form follows function, and the unusual design resulted from a skillful blending of mission requirements with engineering-design expertise by the original de signers at Chance Vought Aircraft in East Hartford, Connecticut, in 1938.
[.....]

(an interesting explanation of how the wing got it's distinctive shape)

Other wing features included a leading-edge air intake at the fuselage intersection that provided cooling air for the oil system and the engine supercharger inter-stage. Under certain flight conditions, particularly high-speed dives, the intakes created a distinct screaming or high-pitched whistling sound. Japanese ground troops under attack by Corsairs soon linked the sound with the fearsome ordnance capabilities of the bent-wing bird. Because of this, and the Corsair's superior air combat capabilities, the Japanese referred to the F4U as "Whistling Death."

The distinctive aircraft acquired many nicknames. Navy and Marine Corps pilots called it "Hose Nose" and "Hog" because of the long fuselage and large engine cowling, especially as viewed from the cockpit; "U-Bird" and "Bent-Wing" followed. New Zealanders dubbed their F4Us the "Kiwi Corsair" and U.S. Marine Corps infantrymen called it "The Sweetheart of Okinawa" for its air-support role in the hard-fought campaign to capture the island.
[.....]
http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalh...bent-wing-bird

The following video @1.15 clearly demonstrates why the moniker may have been considered appropriate( from the "whistling" perspective, anyway).

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ó Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

Last edited by At ease; 08 Sep 16 at 00:24..
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Old 08 Sep 16, 01:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Another probable example of nick name more likely bestowed by the press than the enemy. I've see the "Fork tailed devil" appellation credited to both the Germans and the Japanese. For one thing it seems highly unlikely that the two nations would come up with the same nick name.
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Quote:
In line liquid cooled engines are in general quieter than radial air cooled ones if only because the latter have to be open to the air and therefore the sound is not muted by any housing.
It's so quiet because the exhaust is pushed through the turbochargers, losing most of its energy in the process. These act almost like very efficient mufflers. The plane is quiet, all you need do is listen to one in flight. The P-40 with the same engine and stub exhausts isn't.
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Old 08 Sep 16, 02:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
Below is an admittedly very brief account of the origin of the "Whistling Death" moniker, but at least it comes from Alfred I. Sibila, a reasonably senior member of the original design team from the Corsair's inception:

From the US Naval Institute magazine 02/1995 issue



http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalh...bent-wing-bird

The following video @1.15 clearly demonstrates why the moniker may have been considered appropriate( from the "whistling" perspective, anyway).
I just saw an old video of a USN aircraft bombing a mountainous island during WWII. It just flew along straight and level and dropped its bomb while passing over the target. (edit: I just realized that the video I saw was in the link posted above at 25:51)

Now I am curious, how generally did USN/Marine Corsairs bomb land targets?

As someone who wasnt there at the time, I (and maybe a lot of other people who werent there) would assume that they bombed like the famous Douglass SBD Dauntless dive bombers did on Japanese aircraft carriers at the battle of Midway. Straight down and pull out at the last second. Is that how the Corsair pilots bombed too? Maybe this wasnt the preferred method when flak wasnt as big a concern?
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Last edited by Blair Maynard; 08 Sep 16 at 02:49..
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