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  #1  
Old 13 Aug 16, 06:43
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Fast missile craft vs Torpedo boats

Lets say in a naval battle between 2 forces one side is primarily fast missile craft equipped lets say with 4 anti-ship missile, a medium caliber gun 75mm and some QF automatic cannons vs
Other side has a 2 : 1 superiority in numbers but only has Torpedo boat equipped with 4 x TT, 75mm gun and ASW rockets

Is the second navy with only torpedo craft doomed to lose every time ? ANy strategies they can adopt to offset some of the advantages of the fast missile craft ?
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  #2  
Old 13 Aug 16, 12:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastle View Post
Lets say in a naval battle between 2 forces one side is primarily fast missile craft equipped lets say with 4 anti-ship missile, a medium caliber gun 75mm and some QF automatic cannons vs
Other side has a 2 : 1 superiority in numbers but only has Torpedo boat equipped with 4 x TT, 75mm gun and ASW rockets

Is the second navy with only torpedo craft doomed to lose every time ? ANy strategies they can adopt to offset some of the advantages of the fast missile craft ?
Depends on a lot. Those missile craft could have a far better radar thuse could have the edge in a long range dual.

The torpedo boats only chance is surprise. If small enough, Missile boats radar bad enough and weather rough it could get close enough that it becomes a gun fight. 2 76mm vs 1 76mm means a better chance for the 2. But if the Misslie boat can pick them up on radar they dead either missiles or a 76mm with a better FCS will mean the missile boat can stay out of range.


Either way I don't see the torpedo's being used
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  #3  
Old 13 Aug 16, 12:56
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Stealth and electronics. You can counter a missile that is electronically guided using ECM, chaff, decoys, etc.

Stealth includes such things as using coastal and other land features to blank radar, design of the boat itself to be difficult to detect, that sort of thing. Paint it with radar absorbing paint or coating for example. Camouflage it to make visual detection harder.

The combination could easily give the torpedo boats the time to get in close and avoid being hit by missile fire.
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Old 13 Aug 16, 13:22
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Stealth and electronics. You can counter a missile that is electronically guided using ECM, chaff, decoys, etc.

Stealth includes such things as using coastal and other land features to blank radar, design of the boat itself to be difficult to detect, that sort of thing. Paint it with radar absorbing paint or coating for example. Camouflage it to make visual detection harder.

The combination could easily give the torpedo boats the time to get in close and avoid being hit by missile fire.
The FAC(m) probably all ready has all that as well. Any case I would remove the torpedo's from the torpedo boat. They wont be used either way. Either you get sunk before you can shoot back or you sink with your guns before in torpedo range
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Old 13 Aug 16, 16:56
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I guess the broader context is important too whether missile boat has a defensive or a offensive role.
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Old 13 Aug 16, 19:02
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In a straight up between MBs and TBs, I'd say the MB has an edge because missiles are just better at engaging smaller faster ships.

However, if they were attacking say an Aircraft Carrier, I'd rather have the TB.....because torpedoes are harder to counter than missiles, AND torpedoes do substantially more damage than missiles.
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Old 13 Aug 16, 21:46
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Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
In a straight up between MBs and TBs, I'd say the MB has an edge because missiles are just better at engaging smaller faster ships.

However, if they were attacking say an Aircraft Carrier, I'd rather have the TB.....because torpedoes are harder to counter than missiles, AND torpedoes do substantially more damage than missiles.
Good point , and if lets say the targets of the TB are cargo ships and amphib invasion craft that are guarded by the Missile crafts then they will be hard pressed to counter the torpedoes too provided the missile crafts are distracted by a divisionary attack.

I guess the biggest advantage of the missile craft is the range of its weapons , if this can be minimized by geography confined fiords and rocky cliffs then some of the odds can be minimized ?
Also isnt there a minimum engagement range of anti-ship missiles ?
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Old 12 Sep 17, 09:58
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NK still has a huge number of TB in service , do they constitute a threat to ROK and JSDF USN surface ships ? Given that most of them still use the type 65 wake homing torpedoes
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Old 12 Sep 17, 11:52
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in WW2, I didn't think the PT boats hit much--and they were not attacking ''fast'' missile craft...especially in the Solomons.....a few hits at Battle of Surigao Strait--but bigger ships there,.. for the most part, in line
..as Andrewza infers--would be hard to hit a fast craft with a torpedo, correct?
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Old 12 Sep 17, 12:12
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in WW2, I didn't think the PT boats hit much--and they were not attacking ''fast'' missile craft...especially in the Solomons.....a few hits at Battle of Surigao Strait--but bigger ships there,.. for the most part, in line
..as Andrewza infers--would be hard to hit a fast craft with a torpedo, correct?
I dont think they can hit missile boats but larger destroyers can be hit esp with wake homing torpedoes and if they are in confined waters IMHO
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Old 12 Sep 17, 12:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastle View Post
Lets say in a naval battle between 2 forces one side is primarily fast missile craft equipped lets say with 4 anti-ship missile, a medium caliber gun 75mm and some QF automatic cannons vs
Other side has a 2 : 1 superiority in numbers but only has Torpedo boat equipped with 4 x TT, 75mm gun and ASW rockets
Is the second navy with only torpedo craft doomed to lose every time ? ANy strategies they can adopt to offset some of the advantages of the fast missile craft ?
My money's on the smaller missile boats..
Let's do the sums- say there are 10 missile boats each packing 4 anti-ship missiles, which gives a total punch of 40 missiles.
The enemy force is bigger with 20 vessels, each with a 75mm gun for a total of 20 guns. but 75mm guns are not so hot at shooting down missiles anyway, the boats will pop chaff/flares to try to decoy the missiles, or try to jam the missiles radar, but there's no guarantee it'll work, so 40 missiles against 20 guns looks to me as if the missile boats will win most of the time.

PS- but like other guys have said, a lot depends on what specific vessels on both sides we're talking about. For example missiles usually have a longer range than guns, so if the missile boats stand off and launch at maximum range, the enemy's guns won't have the range to hit them in return!.
(We wargamers do naval tactics stuff like that all the time)..

Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 12 Sep 17 at 12:25..
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Old 12 Sep 17, 12:23
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
My money's on the smaller missile boats..
Let's do the sums- say there are 10 missile boats each packing 4 anti-ship missiles, which gives a total punch of 40 missiles.
The enemy force is bigger with 20 vessels, each with a 75mm gun for a total of 20 guns. but 75mm guns are not so hot at shooting down missiles anyway, so 40 missiles against 20 guns looks to me as if the missile boats will win most of the time.

PS- but like other guys have said, a lot depends on what specific vessels on both sides we're talking about. For example missiles usually have a longer range than guns, so if the missile boats stand off and launch at maximum range, the enemy's guns won't have the range to hit them in return!.
(We wargamers do naval tactics stuff like that all the time)..
I understand , but what about torpedoes ?

can you recommend any naval games ( not WW2 era) that involve cold war era small craft combat like TB or MGB

thanks
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Old 12 Sep 17, 12:50
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Originally Posted by nastle View Post
I understand , but what about torpedoes ?
can you recommend any naval games ( not WW2 era) that involve cold war era small craft combat like TB or MGB
thanks
Naval gamers have all got their own favourites, but personally I'd say go for Fleet Command, it's currently only 6.99 GB pounds (about 9 US dollars) from Steam, I've been playing it for years..
It was released 18 years ago and has still got a big fan following because it's so bloody good; the user interface is a piece o' cake and you can either play the stock scenarios or use the editor to build your own simple scenarios in literally less than 5 minutes, you could just have one ship against one ship, or build something bigger like say 10 missile boats versus 20 gunboats, it's excellent for understanding naval tactics, no wonder the military use computer simulations for training..
PS- you mentioned torpedoes. They're in Fleet Command but are a bit oldfashioned and slow in modern warfare, warships usually hear them coming on sonar and will turn to outrun them.
If a smaller boat hasn't got sonar it'll have to rely on the crews eyeballs to see one coming, a bit tricky at night, but small boats are harder to hit with torpedoes anyway so they've got a fair chance of not being clobbered. The ideal targets for torps are fat juicy tankers and merchants, or crippled enemy warships that can be finished off with torps..


Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 12 Sep 17 at 13:08..
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Old 12 Sep 17, 14:30
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Originally Posted by nastle View Post
Lets say in a naval battle between 2 forces one side is primarily fast missile craft equipped lets say with 4 anti-ship missile, a medium caliber gun 75mm and some QF automatic cannons vs
Other side has a 2 : 1 superiority in numbers but only has Torpedo boat equipped with 4 x TT, 75mm gun and ASW rockets

Is the second navy with only torpedo craft doomed to lose every time ? ANy strategies they can adopt to offset some of the advantages of the fast missile craft ?
as has been said before it does depend on a lot.
for example the isrealis had a similar fight against the egyptians i believe, granted both sides used missile boats the isreali missiles were significantly shorter ranged than their opponents, however the isrealis won due to having chaff.

if you specified counter measures like chaff on the torpedo boats, and acoustic decoys on the missile boats then it may well come down to a gun fight.
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Old 12 Sep 17, 14:34
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in WW2, I didn't think the PT boats hit much--and they were not attacking ''fast'' missile craft...especially in the Solomons.....a few hits at Battle of Surigao Strait--but bigger ships there,.. for the most part, in line
..as Andrewza infers--would be hard to hit a fast craft with a torpedo, correct?
in WWII they also didn't have torpedoes that had their own internal sonar tracking systems, or wire guided torpedoes or anything like that either...
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