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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Age of Formative Expansion

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American Age of Formative Expansion 1789-1830 To begin with the 1st US President & extend through the Whiskey Rebellion, Quasi War with France, War of 1812, & southeastern Indian wars,

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  #61  
Old 21 Sep 16, 05:08
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Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
All the above taken from the American State Papers, Naval Affairs, Volume I; United States Statutes at Large; and the Annals of Congress.
Perhaps you could also add some quotations from the sources you listed? Adams used the American State Papers and other primary sources and comes up with different conclusions.

You don't support your opinions well at all.
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Old 21 Sep 16, 09:40
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Tuebor, you need to be much more specific in your documentation. It is not sufficient to write: "All the above taken from the American State Papers, Naval Affairs, Volume I; United States Statutes at Large; and the Annals of Congress."

As an example you wrote: " In late 1805, Jefferson did request Congress to authorize the construction of the battleships...." Where did you get that? Are you referring to Jefferson's weak comment in his 5th annual message in December 1805 where he said:
Quote:
"Considerable provision has been made under former authorities from Congress of materials for the construction of ships of war of 74 guns. These materials are on hand subject to the further will of the Legislature."
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  #63  
Old 24 Sep 16, 17:46
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Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
Against Eustis' direct orders. He was ordered further north, and eventually did move, after which, he was relieved of his command and court martialed. That the court acquitted him cannot be laid at the hand of neither Eustis nor Madison...Wrong, wrong, and wrong. All these things were purchased for the hospital. The Congressional Enquiry on the Mortality of the Army at New Orleans (which also acquitted Wilkinson) makes it clear that all of these were purchased for the hospital in quantity...686 deaths (of all causes, but mostly disease), 108 deserted, and 58 discharged (for disability (mainly), term of service expiration, etc). All figures readily available in the ASP...Again in error. About 2000 of the Additional Army were ordered to New Orleans. More than 700 of the peace establishment were already there. 2,700+ not "2000." Source as above.
As of 10 June there were 'more than 500 sick' who were 'suffering chiefly from chronic diarrhea, bilious or intermittent fevers, and scurvy.'

The camp was moved to Terre aux Boeufs on 10 June and by 12 July a report on the camp stated 'The whole camp abounds with filth and nastiness of almost every kind.' The sick list as of that date was 660 out of a strength of 1689 NCOs and enlisted men.

By August the sick list at the camp was 963 out of 1574.

When the camp was evacuated on 14 September the total strength was about 1500, with 900 of them sick. The number who had died from sickness was 127; but 250 died on their way upriver after the camp was abandoned. Total dead was then 377.

Of the 2,000 new recruits in the camp under Wilkinson's command 764 out of 2000 died in their first year of service. Total of dead and deserted was 931.

See Henry Adams' History of the United States during the administrations of James Madison, 121-124.
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  #64  
Old 25 Sep 16, 08:39
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Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
A poor, opinionated, and unsourced summary of the situation can be found in Amateurs, To Arms! by John Elting.

Congress reduced it a year after Jefferson took office. The Act of February 20th, 1802 halted all recruiting of the "augmented army." This included the 5th-16th Regiments and the Dragoon regiment (except for the original two dragoon companies).

The two Regiments of Artillerists and Engineers (1st with sixteen companies, and the 2nd with twelve) were reduced and reorganized into a single regiment of twenty companies (so real loss was only eight companies), and the Engineers were separated from the artillery and professionalized. A step up. The 3,200 is authorized strength. Actual strength hovered around 2,700 until the 1808 Augmentation.

Reduced the size of the army by a third the officers will be reduced by a third. It goes without saying. Wilkinson was the only general officer when Jefferson took office. All other general officers were riffed in May of 1800. Adams takes the fall for this one, and Washington appointed him brigadier general in the first place.

As mentioned, it fluctuated depending on recruitment/loss rates. This has always been true.

Actually, about 5,200. The 6,700 figure was what it was at at the declaration of war-- six months on. Still, that 5,200 was more than the 4,000 or so at the Augmented army's height (with an authorized strength of about 14,000. When Washington left office, the army was authorized 2000 infantry, 800 artillery, and 125 cavalry, or just about 3,000. Jefferson's peacetime force, organized somewhat differently, essentially equaled Washington's.

Against Eustis' direct orders. He was ordered further north, and eventually did move, after which, he was relieved of his command and court martialed. That the court acquitted him cannot be laid at the hand of neither Eustis nor Madison.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. All these things were purchased for the hospital. The Congressional Enquiry on the Mortality of the Army at New Orleans (which also acquitted Wilkinson) makes it clear that all of these were purchased for the hospital in quantity.

686 deaths (of all causes, but mostly disease), 108 deserted, and 58 discharged (for disability (mainly), term of service expiration, etc). All figures readily available in the ASP.

Again in error. About 2000 of the Additional Army were ordered to New Orleans. More than 700 of the peace establishment were already there. 2,700+ not "2000." Source as above.

So far all that you have shown is that the source of your "facts" (and not Eustis) is incompetent. If the Major Leagues represents professional historians, your source would have been cut from A Ball.
The strengths and casualties numbers should always be looked at in more than one source, primary or secondary.

For example, the casualties of both sides in the Niagara campaign of 1814 are different in three excellent secondary sources on the campaign by Col Elting, Robert Quimby, and Donald Graves:

Strength at Chippawa:
Graves 1 (Red Coats and Gray Jackets):
US: 1300 (page 101)
On page 165 in Appendix A the US strength in regulars, including artillery, is 1609. Added to this are 500 militia and Indians for the total on the field of 2109. Scott’s brigade, which was involved in the fight is listed as 1319 regulars, all ranks.
British: 1200 (page 102)
On page 167 in Appendix B the total strength in British regulars, including artillery and cavalry, is 1500, plus 500 Indians and militia. British infantry on the field is 1360 which were involved in the fight.
Graves 2 (Where Right and Glory Lead):
US: 1319 (page 48)
British: 1350 (page 80)
Elting:
US: 1300 (page 187)
British: 1500 (page 187)
Quimby:
US: 1300 (page 527)
British: 1500 (page 527)

Casualties at Chippawa:
Graves 1:
US: 278 (page 134)
British: 481 (page 133)
Graves 2:
US: 295 (page 90)
British: 456 (page 90)
Elting:
US: 268 (page 187)
British: 415 (page 187)
Quimby:
US: 262 (Scott’s brigade) (page 527)
British: 512 (page 527)
Strengths at Lundy’s Lane:
Graves 1: Not covered.
Graves 2: From Appendices A and B on pages 257-264, for 25 July 1814
US: 2688
British: 4638
Elting:
US: 2200 (pages 190-196)
British: 3500 (pages 190-196)
Quimby:
US: 2800 engaged (page 544)
British: 2800 engaged (page 544)
Casualties at Lundy’s Lane:
Graves 1: Not covered.
Graves 2:
US: 861 (pages 196-197)
British: 878 (pages 195-196)
Elting:
US: 861 (page 195)
British: 876 (page 195)
Quimby:
US: 853 (page 544)
British: 878 (page 544)
Strengths at Fort Erie:
Graves 1: Not covered.
Graves 2:
US: 2125 + (page 212)
British: 2500+ (page 220)
Elting:
US: 2000+ (pages 247-252)
British: 3000+ (pages 247-252)
Quimby:
US: 2200 (page 552)
British: 2250 + (page 554) (1200 more arrived after the repulse of the British assault on the fort)
Casualties at Fort Erie:
Graves 1: Not covered.
Graves 2:
US: 573 (pages 220-221; 227)
British: 1421 (pages 220-221; 227)
Elting:
US: 595 (pages 247-252)
British: 1512 (pages 247-252)
Quimby:
US: 595
British: 1514

So which are accurate as they are all different? Personally I use Quimby's in anything that I write, but that doesn't mean that either of the other two historians are incorrect. I just prefer Quimby.

Instead of defaming and denigrating a historian such as Col Elting, who is still a recognized authority on the Grande Armee as well as the US Army, I would recommend that you actually do the research and then cite and quote from it which you failed to do.

Every historian makes errors, just as some material considered primary has to be either used with care or not used at all.

What have you written and published on the period?
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  #65  
Old 25 Sep 16, 14:52
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US Army Strengths in the Jefferson and Madison Administrations

1801: Two infantry regiments and one artillery regiment.

1808: Seven infantry regiments, one regiment of artillery, one regiment of light artillery, one rifle regiment, one dragoon regiment.

1812 (War Establishment): 25 infantry regiments, three artillery regiments, one light artillery regiment, two regiments of light dragoons, one rifle regiment, corps of engineers.

1813 (War Establishment): 44 infantry regiments (including rangers and sea fencibles), corps of engineers, two light dragoon regiments, three artillery regiments, one light artillery regiment, one rifle regiment.
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  #66  
Old 02 Jan 17, 17:44
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Concerning the issue of Eustis ordering the selling of the horses.

History of Military Mobilization in the United States Army 1775 -1945 by Marvin A. Kreidberg, Lieutenant Colonel, Infantry, United States Army and Merton G. Henry First Lieutenant, AGC, United States Army. Department of the Army pamphlet no. 20 - 212.

On page 39: The Act of April 12, 1808, authorized a light artillery regiment, but since artillery units were expensive Secretary of War Dearborn, treading cautiously, authorized only one battery, whose horses were purchased in May 1808. The enthusiastic battery commander, Capt. George Peter, labored arduously to recruit and train his men, to assemble his equipment, and to train his animals. This promising beginning towards mobile artillery fire support came to an untimely and abrupt end in the spring of 1809 when a new Secretary of War, William Eustis, in the interest of economy ordered the artillery horses sold. This economy completely immobilized the artillery for three more years at a time when mobilization measures should have been emerging,
The above quote is somewhat misleading and takes the order out of context. The order, such as it was, can be found in William Eustis' letter of June 22nd, 1809 to James Wilkinson (RG 107 Microcopy 6 roll 4 page 143 "Letters Sent by the Secretary of War").

I am informed by the accountant that the amount of Expenditures at N. Orleans is great: that the charges for house rent, forage & other articles are such as if admitted and continued will soon devour our appropriations. The enclosed memo [not found] will give you an Idea of them. I beg of you to interpose your authority & put an end to them. Horses for the artillery cannot be maintained at such an Expense. They must either be sent to some part of the Country where they can be maintained at one fourth of the present Expense, or they may be sold. On those waters I should suppose they might be dispensed with. The Drivers should be taken from the line; there is no lawful authority for the employment of other persons. Imagine for a moment the whole regiment of Lt. Artillery on this scale of Expense. Consider the prejudices against the Army in general which an inspection of such Charges by members of the government is calculated to impress on their minds.

As can be seen the order to sell the horses of the Light Artillery was discretionary and only intended for those companies (Scott's, Townsend's, and Peter's) that were at New Orleans. No other orders for selling or dismounting light artillery companies can be found. At least one other company (Benjamin Eustis') in New England was in the process of being mounted at this time. The remaining companies I do not know. Most were doing garrison duty in fortifications. Pitt's was in Maine and Gano's (later Price's) company was at Fort Massac. The latter I believe was never mounted, and was always skeletal.

Expenses were outrageously high in New Orleans at this time. The person in charge of the purchasing was the Military Agent A. D. Abraham, but he had asked to have been relieved and then purchases in N.O. looks to have skyrocketed. Abraham's replacement, Abraham M'Culluh arrived in July and promptly died. Zebulon Pike took over, and had fits trying to tidy up the mess and bring expenses down.

Tuebor

Last edited by Tuebor; 02 Jan 17 at 18:38..
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  #67  
Old 03 Jan 17, 08:18
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Eustis also ordered that the horses of Captain Peter's new horse artillery company be sold in 1809 shortly after he assumed the office of Secretary of War, following the lead of the new Jefferson administration.

Apparently, Eustis believed the horses to be 'an unnecessary waste of public funds.' The new Light Artillery Regiment was not authorized new horses until February 1812.

The Light Artillery Regiment had been authorized in 1808.

During the War of 1812 most of the US artillery companies were either employed as infantry or in the garrison of forts. They were excellent troops and the one artillery battalion of four companies assigned to the US Left Division under Jacob Brown performed superbly as artillery in the field.

The British remarked that 'we thought you were French' as a compliment and were amazed that the Americans did not have French artillery officers assigned to them.
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Old 03 Jan 17, 09:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Eustis also ordered that the horses of Captain Peter's new horse artillery company be sold in 1809 shortly after he assumed the office of Secretary of War, following the lead of the new Jefferson administration.

Apparently, Eustis believed the horses to be 'an unnecessary waste of public funds.' The new Light Artillery Regiment was not authorized new horses until February 1812.

The Light Artillery Regiment had been authorized in 1808.

During the War of 1812 most of the US artillery companies were either employed as infantry or in the garrison of forts. They were excellent troops and the one artillery battalion of four companies assigned to the US Left Division under Jacob Brown performed superbly as artillery in the field.

The British remarked that 'we thought you were French' as a compliment and were amazed that the Americans did not have French artillery officers assigned to them.
Do you have a source for that
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Old 03 Jan 17, 10:05
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Do you have a source for that
On the subject of sources you never posted the source for your comment that Madison said he would not have gone to war if he had known Napoleon would be defeated. Would you post that source now?
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Old 03 Jan 17, 10:46
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Originally Posted by History fan View Post
Do you have a source for that
I have two, as a matter of fact.

The first is by Don Graves in an article that he wrote some time ago which I don't have to hand at the moment.

The second is from one of the booklets of memoirs from American officers from the War of 1812. I picked them up at Fort Niagara in July and found them excellent.
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Old 03 Jan 17, 12:55
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
I have two, as a matter of fact.

The first is by Don Graves in an article that he wrote some time ago which I don't have to hand at the moment.

The second is from one of the booklets of memoirs from American officers from the War of 1812. I picked them up at Fort Niagara in July and found them excellent.
I would certainly be interested to know which British soldiers (and at what battle) said that, or was it simply some US Troops Giving It the Large and bigging themselves up ?
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Old 04 Jan 17, 03:43
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Eustis also ordered that the horses of Captain Peter's new horse artillery company be sold in 1809 shortly after he assumed the office of Secretary of War, following the lead of the new Jefferson administration.
You read the above right? Peter's company was one of the three companies at New Orleans. The other two companies were commanded by Winfield Scott and Joseph Townsend.

Quote:
Apparently, Eustis believed the horses to be 'an unnecessary waste of public funds.' The new Light Artillery Regiment was not authorized new horses until February 1812.
Please reread the above quote from Eustis. This was the ONLY time the horses were "suggested" to be sold, because the costs in NO were well beyond normal expenditures. Wilkinson could have moved the Lt Artillery companies to Natchez (as he was told to), and they could have been housed their cheaper one would suspect. Also they were hiring civilian drivers for the companies when the companies were not authorized to do so.

Of the other companies in the Light Artillery Regiment. Josiah Chandler's (later Pitt's) company was doing coastal service at Portland Maine, and John Spann was at Charleston (I think...it was in the Southern department), and Nathan Esterbrook's was at Philadelphia (probably Ft Mifflin) both performing the same duty. Daniel Gano's partially raised company was on garrison duty at Fort Massac, Illinois Territory and never really operated as Artillery even in the War of 1812. (It appears to have been at Fort Meigs, or at least its then commander, Samuel Price, was there). Abraham Eustis' company was at Springfield, Massachusetts, in the process of being mounted. Lastly, Nathan Esterbrook's company was at West Point. It is not clear if it was mounted or not. I have no information on Josiah Telfair's company.
It may have been at Niagara. If so, it was garrison artillery duty.

One thing not mentioned in the "histories" is that by June of 1809, a bill was pushing through Congress to disband the Additional Army of 1808, and while it eventually failed, it played hell on War Department planning.



Quote:
The Light Artillery Regiment had been authorized in 1808.
And it was raised. As I mentioned above and earlier, more than one company was mounted. However, there was no real need for fully horsed artillery in peace time. The army was a constabulary force primarily, and most of its artillery needs were the coastal fortifications. Eustis' company eventually took up the defenses at Newport, Rhode Island.

Quote:
During the War of 1812 most of the US artillery companies were either employed as infantry or in the garrison of forts.
There was never enough artillerymen for the coastal fortifications (a truism during the entire history of the coast artillery). Very little field artillery was actually required on the frontier battle zones.

Tuebor
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Old 04 Jan 17, 07:05
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Originally Posted by History fan View Post
I would certainly be interested to know which British soldiers (and at what battle) said that, or was it simply some US Troops Giving It the Large and bigging themselves up ?
Really?

Give us all a break.

The compliment was given to Hindman's artillery battalion (four companies) after the battles on the Niagara frontier in 1814 (Chippawa, Lundy's Lane, and the fighting around Fort Erie.

You could always invest in the memoirs and find out for yourself if you doubt it. The Old Fort Niagara Association publishes excellent material, a good part of it being primary source material. Two of the memoirs were prepared/edited by Don Graves and Barbuto, respectively, and Don Graves is a Canadian historian, not am American. He is the authority on the battles on the Niagara frontier in 1814.

The booklets are:

-The Life and War Remembrances of Captain Mordecai Myers, 13th United States Infantry 1812-1815 by Neil Yetwin.

-Long Range Guns, Close Quarter Combat: The Third United States Artillery Regiment in the War of 1812 by Richard Barbuto.

-Captain George Howard, United States Army: The Chronicles of a Connecticut Yankee on the Northern Frontier in the War of 1812 by Gregory Kloten.

-First Campaign of an ADC: The War of 1812 Memoir of Lieutenant William Jenkins Worth, United States Army by Don Graves.

There are two additional short works that I have found valuable also from the Old Fort Niagara Association:

-Sailors of 1812: Memoirs and Letters of Naval Officers on Lake Ontario by Robert Malcomson.

-Green Coats and Glory: The United States Regiment of Riflemen 1808-1821 by John Frederickson.

Also by John Frederickson:

-The United States Army in the War of 1812: Concise Biographies of Commanders and Operational Histories of Regiment, with Bibliographies of Published and Primary Sources.
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Old 04 Jan 17, 07:13
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You read the above right? Peter's company was one of the three companies at New Orleans. The other two companies were commanded by Winfield Scott and Joseph Townsend.
Peter's horse artillery company was formed as a demonstration unit by Dearborn when he was Secretary of War. Dearborn was particularly interested in the artillery and spent much time and energy in attempting to improve it. The creation of Peter's command was one result of those efforts.

The company was formed in Washington and was ordered to move from there to Baltimore and the movement and artillery drills and maneuvers went well and the unit was then ordered to Pittsburg, now fully equipped and mounted as horse artillery.

After Pittsburg, the company was ordered to New Orleans. Interestingly, the artillery drivers were directed to be artillerymen, and not artillery train, as they were in European armies.

After Dearborn was replaced by Eustis with the change in administrations was the unit's horses sold.

The US Army was initially employed as a frontier constabulary, but that changed for the better with the advent of General Wayne and the creation of the Legion of the United States, which was for all intents and purposes an all-arms division of the type being employed by the French (and no one else) in Europe.

The US Army had its organization 'ups and down' from then until war came in 1812, and the Jefferson administration did not greatly assist the development of a major war-capable force. Madison wasn't much better, if at all.
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Old 05 Jan 17, 00:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Peter's horse artillery company was formed as a demonstration unit by Dearborn
You do realize that the Light Artillery Regiment was horse artillery do you not? Peters' company was merely the first one formed.

Quote:
The US Army was initially employed as a frontier constabulary, but that changed for the better with the advent of General Wayne and the creation of the Legion of the United States, which was for all intents and purposes an all-arms division of the type being employed by the French (and no one else) in Europe.
It was a good combined arms unit (not a division though, more like a regimental combat team), but was designed specifically for the frontier. It was also too expensive to maintain, and Washington nixed it after the Legion's three year enlistment was up. The "peacetime" army organization that resulted was about the same (in numbers) as Jefferson's "peace establishment." Of course, while not officially the peace establishment, the Additional Army of 1808 was to become the de facto peacetime military. Dearborn's war time establishment called for 22 regiments of infantry, 3 regiments of cavalry, 3 regiments of artillery, and a significant corps of engineers. As war was not declared against Great Britain, Dearborn offered the Additional Army as a peacetime substitute. Congress (and the citizenry of the United States) simply was not going to allow a large peacetime army, and even if it were authorized, recruiting it would have been next to impossible. The 1808 (and even the 1812) Army had great difficulties in recruiting as it was.

Quote:
The US Army had its organization 'ups and down' from then until war came in 1812, and the Jefferson administration did not greatly assist the development of a major war-capable force. Madison wasn't much better, if at all.
What is a "major war-capable force" as you would define it?

The Madison administration kept the 1808 force from being disbanded by Congress. It increased spending on fortifications considerably (the so-called "Second System"), it slowly improved the hospital departments, established at least an informal Apathocary General, e.g., in 1811, which was critically important to any armed force. It increased spending and erecting magazines and arsenals (e.g. the Washington Arsenal was established at this time). It tried to get Congress to get rid of the purchasing system (that dated to Washington) and create a quartermaster general's department in its place. The Springfield and Harper's Ferry arsenals were running at full bore producing 10,000 muskets a year each (wartime production ended up being around 12,000 a year). Once the "military friendly" [a very relative term] 12th Congress went into session, Secretary of War Eustis pushed through his reforms which created the Quartermaster's department, Inspector General, Apothacary General (Officially after the war started), Surgeon General, Ordnance Department. Etc.

Also after he took office Eustis began pushing for new tactical doctrine for all the branches. The Madison Administration was no where near inept as certain later author(s) writing with an agenda would make one believe.

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