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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Latin America & the Caribbean

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Latin America & the Caribbean Including issues of Central and South America and Mexico.

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  #46  
Old 30 Aug 16, 16:36
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I agree with ChrisF1987 100%. This blame it on the USA started in Central and Latin America with Che Guevara and Fidel. Chavez gave it all a boost. Problem is, every time they have such a social disaster like Venezuela is experiencing now, they get worse. I've said over and over again; we've paid them with aid and benefits to hate us in the past, now we should just step back and let them hate us for free and not pay them one damn cent.

I say this because regardless of what we do or don't do, they are going to find a reason, real or imagined, to despise us anyway. They cannot ever learn their corrupted culture is what keeps them in a mess, yet they insist that because we (USA) have so much more than them we are forever obligated to share our riches and share their misery. Ridiculous.

It is a mind-blowing fact indeed that Nicaragua and El Salvador never fell permanently like they almost did. Still today, they, like Honduras, are nothing more than shitholes in Central America and most likely will never rise above that in our lifetime.
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  #47  
Old 30 Aug 16, 17:49
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Let's throw something totally un-PC into this...

The one thing all of Central and South America have in common (if we include Portugal in this for Brazil), with a few small exceptions, is that they evolved out of Spanish culture. That is, Spain ruled all of this part of the world for centuries. It gave it its language, culture, religion, etc.
Out of that, virtually all of Central and South America has turned out Left of center to Leftist nations that are economic and social basket cases, just like Spain (and Portugal) are today.
Like father, like son, so-to-speak.

Language, culture, and history have effects. In Central and South America Spain can be pointed to as the underlying cause of much of the failure.
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  #48  
Old 30 Aug 16, 18:05
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I agree with your outstanding point.

I would like to state that I have discussed this very same and exact point with others in the past and usually we've come to a common conclusion; the Spanish-bred culture in CA and SA carries with it the old Euro feudal system which has never really died there and still to some degree exists. This continuously causes problems and corruption.

Even in present-day Belize, which is for the most part an English-speaking country in CA (the only one), they have not prospered to any great extent because although they were under the British crown instead of the Spanish crown until recently, they are still coming out from under the old British colonial system that also to some degree carried the old Euro feudal system in it's practices. For it's size, Belize is little better off than it's Honduran neighbors and still not a significant power or hub of prosperity in the midst of all the CA madness.

Old Euro feudalism, latter colonialism, the culture of corruption, and the lack of a USA-style constitution and Bill of Rights has kept these countries from prospering.
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  #49  
Old 31 Aug 16, 14:54
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Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
American Coca-Cola and American cigarettes have always been available there. ... American products were sent to Cuba through third party nations.
When I went to Cuba in the late 1990s Coca-Cola was freely available for USD. If you looked at the bottle it said "hecho en Mexico".
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  #50  
Old 31 Aug 16, 16:45
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NAILED IT ... Case in point; the 1986 Full-auto ban. If this wasn't an ultra-paranoid communist maneuver I don't know what is. We'll never get that repealed unless of course it comes via settlement at the end of a civil war.
Quibbling over small arms is really beside the point, though, and has nothing to do with communism. Until the people are legally allowed to possess the same equipment the state can, the effort is still there to maintain an advantage by the state over the people. As long as there is a line between what can and can't be owned by the law-abiding citizenry - no matter how "crazy" - it is another facet of the same design.

This is just part of every state desiring a monopoly on power, because if they lack a monopoly on power then they're not a true state. Imagine if the American citizens owned MANPADs and WMDs - how legitimate would the Federal government actually be?

Simply put, there is nobody but the most extreme anarchists who argue for a parity in power. It is an idea independent of ideology, with only a few negligible differences in the mainstream.
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  #51  
Old 31 Aug 16, 16:57
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Let's throw something totally un-PC into this...

The one thing all of Central and South America have in common (if we include Portugal in this for Brazil), with a few small exceptions, is that they evolved out of Spanish culture. That is, Spain ruled all of this part of the world for centuries. It gave it its language, culture, religion, etc.
Out of that, virtually all of Central and South America has turned out Left of center to Leftist nations that are economic and social basket cases, just like Spain (and Portugal) are today.
Like father, like son, so-to-speak.

Language, culture, and history have effects. In Central and South America Spain can be pointed to as the underlying cause of much of the failure.
And America is a product of European roots, which has been overwhelmingly further left than America ever since the rise of socialism. If your analogy were to hold true, then the US would have followed suite.

That also ignores that South America has also been plagued by very conservative governments during the post-colonial period as well. I wonder if one were to look at South and Central American governments through their history, how many have been conservative juntas and how many have been leftist ideologues. I'm willing to bet there are a goodly number of right-leaning governments as well.

And then one just has to compare those figures for other colonial nations - or even the wider world, considering that nature of European politics during the same figure saw some big extremes as well - and hey, the two biggest cultural influences on the US populace (Anglo and German immigrants) were also the sources of socialism...
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  #52  
Old 31 Aug 16, 19:05
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Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
And America is a product of European roots, which has been overwhelmingly further left than America ever since the rise of socialism. If your analogy were to hold true, then the US would have followed suite.
Not all societies are equal. First, most of Central and South America gained independence in the mid to late 1800's followed by the establishment of a government headed by a military leader, or revolutionary strongman.
When the US broke from England, the later was still a monarchy, not a parliamentary state with a figurehead monarch like it is today.
Additionally, Spain lost her Central and South American colonies at the same time Spain itself was undergoing a revolution and war in Europe much like her colonies were. This is in contrast to the US which was involved in a singular revolt against the Crown and England at the time.
The US revolutionaries also in the aftermath of their win tried their hardest to establish a nation with a weak central government versus the strong ones established in Central and South America.
The rise of socialism in the later came about in large part because of the continued use of strong central governments and often the presence of a dictator as head of state.

Quote:
That also ignores that South America has also been plagued by very conservative governments during the post-colonial period as well. I wonder if one were to look at South and Central American governments through their history, how many have been conservative juntas and how many have been leftist ideologues. I'm willing to bet there are a goodly number of right-leaning governments as well.
Not true either. Central and South America have been plagued by strong Left of Center central governments almost from the get go. Most were established as nations at a time when Socialism and Leftist ideas were ruling revolutions. These were punctuated by military juntas that often inherited the excesses of the Left but were unable to rule for long due to the disastrous economic and social conditions the Left created.

For example the first, what might be called, permanent, constitution of Mexico (1857), was a liberal document. The present constitution of Mexico moved even further Left with direct Socialism.
Through out the entire period of Mexican sovereignty, the nation has been headed by a dominant federal government and a powerful head of state, or single powerful political party (PRI). It is only recently in light of PRI's failure using heavy handed Socialism that a return to more open political discourse has been occurring.

Quote:
And then one just has to compare those figures for other colonial nations - or even the wider world, considering that nature of European politics during the same figure saw some big extremes as well - and hey, the two biggest cultural influences on the US populace (Anglo and German immigrants) were also the sources of socialism...
Socialism in the US has slowly crept into government. T R Roosevelt proposed some of it, but got nowhere. Wilson did too. It was FDR that really made the first inroads into moving the US Left of Center with the New Deal, and income tax. That gave the federal government for the first time considerable economic and social power to expand. Since then it has continued to do so.
The cycle here is the same. Government moves further Left until it collapses under its own weight of stupidity, lethargy, and massive spending on a Social Welfare state that can never support itself. That the US has survived so long without such a collapse is due to it's previously robust economy, something Central and South American nations never got going.
Right now, the only one that really has a good chance to succeed in breaking that cycle is Costa Rica.
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  #53  
Old 01 Sep 16, 15:36
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Let's throw something totally un-PC into this...

The one thing all of Central and South America have in common (if we include Portugal in this for Brazil), with a few small exceptions, is that they evolved out of Spanish culture. That is, Spain ruled all of this part of the world for centuries. It gave it its language, culture, religion, etc.
Out of that, virtually all of Central and South America has turned out Left of center to Leftist nations that are economic and social basket cases, just like Spain (and Portugal) are today.
Like father, like son, so-to-speak.

Language, culture, and history have effects. In Central and South America Spain can be pointed to as the underlying cause of much of the failure.
Ain't any that was not preceded by a right-wing hierarchal state with a vast inequality between a wealthy elite and poverty-stricken multitude, with racial underpinnings. I don't consider Latin conservative governments any more or less successful than socialist governments.

Why do you pick on left leaning governments?
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  #54  
Old 01 Sep 16, 18:32
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Originally Posted by mconrad View Post
Ain't any that was not preceded by a right-wing hierarchal state with a vast inequality between a wealthy elite and poverty-stricken multitude, with racial underpinnings. I don't consider Latin conservative governments any more or less successful than socialist governments.
Name them.

Chile? No... Starting with O'Higgins...
Argentina? No... Gained independence in 1825 then fought a civil war with factions of the country that became Bolivia and Uruguay until about 1852. A liberal government followed. In 1880 PAN, a conservative party got in power and made significant economic headway until ousted in 1916. The Left gained power, the economy stagnated and there was lots of internal strife... Etc...
Brazil? Not really. Initially it was the Empire of Brazil a constitutional monarchy. That followed by years of military juntas and internal strife. In the 1930's it moved to a Republic and to the Left and has steadfastly remained there since.

We could go through the whole list, but the same pattern follows: Initial dictatorship or strongman rule, with increasing moves towards Center, then a revolution and they are stuck on the Left to some degree ever after.
The other thing that follows is the move from Center to Left ruins the economy in every case.

Quote:
Why do you pick on left leaning governments?
Because history unequivocally shows that when the Left runs a country it ruins that country. Soft Left countries like in Europe, take decades to decay into ruins. Hard Left ones do it in a decade, two at most.

Why would anyone want to live in a nation with limited opportunity, high taxes, low or no social mobility, but where you can pursue a life of reasonable leisure on the taxpayer's dime? The Left breeds lethargy, inequality, and an insipid lifestyle.

I'd say that's a damn good reason to hammer the Left at every turn.
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  #55  
Old 02 Sep 16, 04:35
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Where exactly is the right wing then doing a good job?
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Old 02 Sep 16, 04:59
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TAG have you ever considered how much more socialized the US is than many of those nasty Social Democratic country's of Europe?
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Old 02 Sep 16, 11:07
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Easy Answer

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Where exactly is the right wing then doing a good job?
Very simple; every place you still have freedom to move around, voice your opposition to guvmint policies and officials, worship freely, own your own business with minimal to no intrusion, get education that you choose, belong to organizations that you choose, read and write what you choose.

Most third-world left-wing totalitarian countries enjoy little to nine of these freedoms.
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Old 02 Sep 16, 11:08
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TAG have you ever considered how much more socialized the US is than many of those nasty Social Democratic country's of Europe?
Yes, thanks to the left-wing manipulation and movement of communist-socialist minded losers.
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Old 02 Sep 16, 11:36
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Very simple; every place you still have freedom to move around, voice your opposition to guvmint policies and officials, worship freely, own your own business with minimal to no intrusion, get education that you choose, belong to organizations that you choose, read and write what you choose.

Most third-world left-wing totalitarian countries enjoy little to nine of these freedoms.
...well I guess your bias is then that you assume such places are product of right wing parties. In Europe a lot of them have to do with left wing. Did you have any concrete examples in any case?
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Old 02 Sep 16, 14:04
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TAG have you ever considered how much more socialized the US is than many of those nasty Social Democratic country's of Europe?
In what way?
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