HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Latin America & the Caribbean

Notices and Announcements

Latin America & the Caribbean Including issues of Central and South America and Mexico.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 23 Aug 16, 17:05
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,362
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
This WP article will have you laughing at Venezuela...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...getting-worse/

Quote:
Venezuela is stuck in a doom loop that's become a death spiral...

It gives new meaning to the revolution devouring its own...

Here's how it works, or rather doesn't...

Inflation... inflation went from 19 percent in 2012 to, the IMF estimates, 720 percent this year, and a projected 2,200 percent the next....

Price controls. Venezuela, for i(t)s part, has resorted to a tried-and-untrue strategy for dealing with all these price increases. That's pretending they haven't happened....

Shortages. Something Venezuela's government hasn't quite managed to figure out, though, is that trying to force companies to sell at a loss means they won't sell anything at all...
The accompanying video of a mob looting a bakery is a nice touch.


Quote:
Nationalizations. So what do you do when businesses refuse to sell things at a loss? Easy. You blame them, and then do so yourself...

Now, there are two things you need to remember about Venezuela. The first is that if it can get worse, it will get worse. And the second is that it can always get worse...

It brings to mind the old joke: Under capitalism, man exploits man, and under Bolivarian socialism, it's just the opposite.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 23 Aug 16, 18:45
GRA's Avatar
GRA GRA is offline
First Lieutenant
United_States
 
Real Name: G.R. Arnold
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pasadena, TX
Posts: 542
GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99]
Y'all know what the scary part of this is ... ???

This could also happen HERE IN THE USA if we get the wrong regime in office. I can easily see a scenario with this happening under the progressives/democrats. Sad.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 23 Aug 16, 18:53
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,362
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GRA View Post
Y'all know what the scary part of this is ... ???

This could also happen HERE IN THE USA if we get the wrong regime in office. I can easily see a scenario with this happening under the progressives/democrats. Sad.
I suspect that would result in a civil war of the shooting sort in the US. The majority of Americans wouldn't put up with it for a New York second. Given the mass of privately owned weapons and the nature of the American psyche, things would get vicious and violent PDQ.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 23 Aug 16, 19:06
Bwaha's Avatar
Bwaha Bwaha is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Orbiting the Sun
Posts: 18,253
Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bwaha has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I suspect that would result in a civil war of the shooting sort in the US. The majority of Americans wouldn't put up with it for a New York second. Given the mass of privately owned weapons and the nature of the American psyche, things would get vicious and violent PDQ.
Not me. The cops, the military, and the people wouldn't stand for it for a minute. It'd be a almost bloodless victory. Well the city folks would have a rough time, but well...
__________________
Credo quia absurdum.


Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 23 Aug 16, 19:12
GRA's Avatar
GRA GRA is offline
First Lieutenant
United_States
 
Real Name: G.R. Arnold
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pasadena, TX
Posts: 542
GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99]
Tyler, Texas, CSA in 1865

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I suspect that would result in a civil war of the shooting sort in the US. The majority of Americans wouldn't put up with it for a New York second. Given the mass of privately owned weapons and the nature of the American psyche, things would get vicious and violent PDQ.
Oh I firmly agree with you. It would be a major SHTF scenario and the liberals would NOT be on the winning side, BUT ... it will be no doubt HORRIFIC beyond the comprehension of a lot of people.

Civil War ... yes indeed. If you are the type to sit down a read a book, let me suggest one for you that is most likely as real as one could ever be on our last Civil War.

Check out the book; "Tyler, Texas, CSA". It was written by a man back in the 50(s) who was very active in the NRA up in Maryland. Somehow he got a copy of the daily journal of the CSA Ordinance Officer, Major Thomas Rhett, who was in charge of the ordinance/gun depot at Tyler, Texas at the time, of the Confederate Trans-Mississippi Department.

The book is a reprint of this Officer's actual daily journal. It gives a very good insight to the military mind back in that time. You'll be surprised that some attitudes have remained the same even to this day.

My point is, at the end of the book it describes what actually happened in Tyler, Texas the moment the town (now city) learned of Lee's surrender and the war's end. Literally, the SHTF and it was a mess. It was a scenario much like what you see in the video (referenced above) of the looting of the bakery in Venezuela.

I often recommend this book as good reading for US Civil War military and sociological history. It's actually very well written. It will give some insight, IMHO, what it would be like if something like that would happen today (most likely much, much worse).

I don't know if it's in print any longer but I got mine several years ago from Dixie Gun Works.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 23 Aug 16, 19:19
GRA's Avatar
GRA GRA is offline
First Lieutenant
United_States
 
Real Name: G.R. Arnold
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pasadena, TX
Posts: 542
GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Not me. The cops, the military, and the people wouldn't stand for it for a minute. It'd be a almost bloodless victory. Well the city folks would have a rough time, but well...
Recent SHTF scenarios and how folks reacted;

LA Riots following the Rodney King case,

Hurricane Katrina disaster looting and general fiasco,

Ferguson, Missouri

Baltimore, Maryland

Just in recent memory, the SHTF several times and to be honest, folks immediately affected acted far different than I once suspected.

There was a article done in a NRA magazine back in the 90(s) about an LA cop that gave an interview with regards to gun control. Throughout the whole article, that officer basically stated that when such an event occurs the cops cannot protect you and it will most likely be each man for himself. I've always remembered that article through the years whenever a SHTF scenario has developed. From what I've seen, that officer was 100% honest and correct.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 23 Aug 16, 21:35
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,362
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Not me. The cops, the military, and the people wouldn't stand for it for a minute. It'd be a almost bloodless victory. Well the city folks would have a rough time, but well...
A small nuke on San Fran and count it as biblical wrath...?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 23 Aug 16, 21:38
GRA's Avatar
GRA GRA is offline
First Lieutenant
United_States
 
Real Name: G.R. Arnold
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pasadena, TX
Posts: 542
GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
A small nuke on San Fran and count it as biblical wrath...?
LOL ... that's just one speck on the map
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 25 Aug 16, 01:06
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,362
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
So, do you think the management will be going to the gulag...?


Quote:
The Big Mac isn't being sold in Venezuela anymore...

The dish has been eliminated-not due to lack of interest or some exec's gleeful desire to watch people meltdown upon learning they can't have two all-beef patties with special sauce on a sesame seed bun-but because of a food shortage sparked by the country's economic crisis...

While McDonald's did not give an official reason as to why the iconic burger would be removed from the menu, Venezuelan media has been speculating that the restaurant chain could no longer source the thin middle bun that separates its two beef patties. What's more, the country also suspended french fries for 11 months last year because of food shortages.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrin...ya?ocid=SMSDHP
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 25 Aug 16, 07:31
GRA's Avatar
GRA GRA is offline
First Lieutenant
United_States
 
Real Name: G.R. Arnold
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pasadena, TX
Posts: 542
GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99]
Well Ya know when McDonald's can't get full support the situation is definitely getting bad, especially with french fries. I mean, come on; isn't South America the place where the potato originates from anyways?

They are going to have a long recovery, I'm afraid. I'm surprised that place hasn't reached a point of dire critical mass and there's mass anarchy.

I bet they'll think twice in the future before voting some clown like Chavez in again.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 29 Aug 16, 19:08
The Exorcist's Avatar
The Exorcist The Exorcist is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 27,525
The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
To keep people oppressed, they must be disarmed

Venezuela crushes 2,000 guns in public, plans registry of bullets

Quote:
Interior Minister Nestor Reverol said the event marked the renewal of efforts to disarm Venezuelans, through a combination of seizures and a voluntary program to swap guns for electrical goods.

Venezuela has the world's second highest murder rate and the street gangs that plague its poor neighborhoods have become increasingly heavily armed in recent years, at a time when a deep recession has reduced resources available to police.

Gangs often get weapons from the police, either by stealing them or buying them from corrupt officers, experts say.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by TactiKill J. View Post
...
If your argument is that the government doesn't spy on its own citizens then you're completely oblivious to reality.
"We have reached the stage where satire is prophecy"
-Theodore Dalrymple
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 29 Aug 16, 20:23
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,362
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Venezuela crushes 2,000 guns in public, plans registry of bullets
It isn't about "crime." It's about revolution. Can't have the masses rise up against the incredible incompetence of government and the staggeringly stupid decisions the leadership of the Socialist state have made now can we...?

So, confiscate all the guns and ammo...

But, things can get worse...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.db7d21bcb6ad

Or, another shortage... Coffins... Now cardboard is being used...

https://www.yahoo.com/digest/2016082...ffins-10498779

And a general round up and imprisonment of the opposition is underway with full steam...

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...risis-worsens/

Quote:
“Authorities in Venezuela seem to be willing to stop at nothing in their quest to prevent anyone from criticizing them, particularly as the political and humanitarian situation in the country continues to deteriorate,” said Erika Guevara-Rosas, Americas Director at Amnesty International.
Yep, things are so great with the Left in power...

But, those on the Left blame it all on the opposition, just like Maduros...

https://www.thenation.com/article/wh...ela-in-crisis/

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 29 Aug 16 at 20:38..
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 29 Aug 16, 20:30
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 24,907
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
It isn't about "crime." It's about revolution. Can't have the masses rise up against the incredible incompetence of government and the staggeringly stupid decisions the leadership of the Socialist state have made now can we...?

So, confiscate all the guns and ammo...
Funnily enough, the US does the same thing, though on a lesser scale. It goes very far to ensure many weapons and weapon systems aren't allowed to the average citizen. A state can't tolerate the people possessing a parity in power.
__________________
"In Iraq, the U.S. intervened and occupied, and the result was a costly disaster. In Libya, the U.S. intervened and did not occupy, and the result was a costly disaster. In Syria, the U.S. neither intervened nor occupied, and the result is a costly disaster."
-- Philip Gordon, 2015
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 29 Aug 16, 20:40
GRA's Avatar
GRA GRA is offline
First Lieutenant
United_States
 
Real Name: G.R. Arnold
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pasadena, TX
Posts: 542
GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99] GRA is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
Funnily enough, the US does the same thing, though on a lesser scale. It goes very far to ensure many weapons and weapon systems aren't allowed to the average citizen. A state can't tolerate the people possessing a parity in power.
NAILED IT ... Case in point; the 1986 Full-auto ban. If this wasn't an ultra-paranoid communist maneuver I don't know what is. We'll never get that repealed unless of course it comes via settlement at the end of a civil war.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 30 Aug 16, 15:15
ChrisF1987's Avatar
ChrisF1987 ChrisF1987 is offline
Major General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Chris F
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: On a Long Island in New York, USA
Posts: 2,912
ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200] ChrisF1987 is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Are they still getting away with blaming all this on the Americans as I'm amazed political matters haven't been changed by the street by now.
That's the norm in Latin America - when in doubt just blame the "Yankee Gringo imperialists". The reality is - if we wanted to - we could all the way to Tierra del Fuego and there is nothing they can do to stop us. If you massed the entire military force of every Latin American nation in the same place at the same time they still would not be able to stop us.

The cold hard truth is really simple: these anti-American leftist clowns do such a top notch job that we don't need to overthrow them, they will end up overthrowing themselves via their failed economic measures and political systems. "Socialismo del Siglo XXI" will fail just like it did in the Soviet Union. Venezuela was doing pretty well before Chavez, point is that socialism as practiced in Latin America's "Pink tide" nations does not work.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 19:39.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.