HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II

Notices and Announcements

World War II Discuss WW2. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 26 Aug 16, 22:26
Emtos's Avatar
Emtos Emtos is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Anton
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charleroi
Posts: 11,276
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
You said it all 'when'. With an effective blockade, the 'when' turn to 'never'.
There was never anything close to an effective blockade of US and UK. So your remarks are simply meaningless.
__________________
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 27 Aug 16, 03:02
Metryll's Avatar
Metryll Metryll is offline
General of the Forums
EU
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Toulon, France
Posts: 7,301
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
There was never anything close to an effective blockade of US and UK. So your remarks are simply meaningless.
If so write a book, you just made a revolution in both geostrategy and naval warfare as you are arguing that since USN and RN won over KM there was no need for them...
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 27 Aug 16, 08:09
broderickwells's Avatar
broderickwells broderickwells is offline
General of the Forums
France
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Auckland
Posts: 10,624
broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
Note the sleight of hand
Now the density of the Germans is to be measured after they were battered into submission.

The truth only 'remains to be seen' by those who have no desire to see it.
I'm having an attack of the thicks; could you please expand and explain your answer.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 27 Aug 16, 08:13
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,350
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
In Normandy Allied did not lacked any doctrine for a maneuver, German density simply negated any attempt to use such a doctrine. Cobra is often seen as breach made by VII Corps towards Avranches. Actually it is the US rigth flank which pivoted again 7th Army left flank. VII Corps advance allowed VIII Corps to breach German line at a point out of reach of German reserves. This quite visible when one look at CCB/4 advance.
Agree, there was little to no maneuver room. Fighting through terrain like the bocage was straight attrition.

If I had the time, it would be interesting to go back and see how the Red Army organized and conducted their breakouts from bridgeheads across rivers which gave initially little room for maneuver like Normandy. They failed to do it at the Bukrin bend on the Dnepr River in September 1943, even when they sought to add an element of maneuver with the use of airborne troops [See the airborne operation failure explained in the book Red Army Legacies, Chapter 2, The Bukrin Drop: Limits to Creativity]. But they did it from the Lyutezh bridgehead on the Dnepr River north of Kiev November 1943 [The above referenced Soviet Operational Deception explains how the Red Army deceptively maneuvered the 3rd Guards Tank Army from Bukrin to the Lyutezh bridgehead]. And the Vistula to Oder Operation started from three bridgeheads over the Vistula River.
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 27 Aug 16 at 09:47..
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 27 Aug 16, 10:04
Emtos's Avatar
Emtos Emtos is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Anton
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charleroi
Posts: 11,276
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
If so write a book, you just made a revolution in both geostrategy and naval warfare as you are arguing that since USN and RN won over KM there was no need for them...
I'm not arguing anything like that. It's your imagination.
__________________
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #51  
Old 27 Aug 16, 13:19
Metryll's Avatar
Metryll Metryll is offline
General of the Forums
EU
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Toulon, France
Posts: 7,301
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
I'm not arguing anything like that. It's your imagination.
"There was never anything close to an effective blockade of US and UK."

Yes there never was an effective blockade because USN/RN acted to keep sea lanes open.

Either you recognise this point and your previous vision of sea acting as a protection is erroneous or your maintain the later which implies that Allied navies were useless.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 27 Aug 16, 13:33
Metryll's Avatar
Metryll Metryll is offline
General of the Forums
EU
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Toulon, France
Posts: 7,301
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
Agree, there was little to no maneuver room. Fighting through terrain like the bocage was straight attrition.

If I had the time, it would be interesting to go back and see how the Red Army organized and conducted their breakouts from bridgeheads across rivers which gave initially little room for maneuver like Normandy. They failed to do it at the Bukrin bend on the Dnepr River in September 1943, even when they sought to add an element of maneuver with the use of airborne troops [See the airborne operation failure explained in the book Red Army Legacies, Chapter 2, The Bukrin Drop: Limits to Creativity]. But they did it from the Lyutezh bridgehead on the Dnepr River north of Kiev November 1943 [The above referenced Soviet Operational Deception explains how the Red Army deceptively maneuvered the 3rd Guards Tank Army from Bukrin to the Lyutezh bridgehead]. And the Vistula to Oder Operation started from three bridgeheads over the Vistula River.
The problem is that, AFAIK, nothing compare to Bocage in any theater. Sure, terrain is a factor that should not be overestimated but in this case constraints were quite heavy. Each hedgerow acted like a compartment in a ship, any breach leading only to few hundred meters of gains. Eventhough road density was quite high (including numerous trails), bocage effectively channeled any vehicle advance. Any unceratinty due to US maneuver was killed at the very start : German simply had to sent a limited amount o reserve along to create an effective blockroad. This is basically how overextented and exhausted Germans ID were able to keep Americans at bay for more than a month and half.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 27 Aug 16, 13:43
Emtos's Avatar
Emtos Emtos is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Anton
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charleroi
Posts: 11,276
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
"There was never anything close to an effective blockade of US and UK."

Yes there never was an effective blockade because USN/RN acted to keep sea lanes open.

Either you recognise this point and your previous vision of sea acting as a protection is erroneous or your maintain the later which implies that Allied navies were useless.
First stop seeing things that aren't here. Second, USN/RN were there by definition since there is precisely a sea between US/Britain and Europe which pushed them to be sea powers. And finaly, even if USN/RN weren't there, Germany and Japan couldn't mount an invasion because they completely lacked the means to transport and supply an adequate invasion force.
__________________
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 27 Aug 16, 15:16
Metryll's Avatar
Metryll Metryll is offline
General of the Forums
EU
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Toulon, France
Posts: 7,301
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
First stop seeing things that aren't here. Second, USN/RN were there by definition since there is precisely a sea between US/Britain and Europe which pushed them to be sea powers. And finaly, even if USN/RN weren't there, Germany and Japan couldn't mount an invasion because they completely lacked the means to transport and supply an adequate invasion force.
Mainland Japan was never invaded and surrendered. Obviously you have no interest about a cogent discussion, only jumping from a demonstrated false assertion to another one in circle. Case closed.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 27 Aug 16, 21:01
Emtos's Avatar
Emtos Emtos is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Anton
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charleroi
Posts: 11,276
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
Mainland Japan was never invaded and surrendered. Obviously you have no interest about a cogent discussion, only jumping from a demonstrated false assertion to another one in circle. Case closed.
They were just bombed to dead, had their armies in way of being destroyed in all theaters and Allies were planning to land in mainlaind in the next mounts. Something that they were really capable of unlike the Axis which was absolutely incapable of doing anything of above to UK and US. So my case stands and you were proved wrong.
__________________
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 28 Aug 16, 00:10
m kenny's Avatar
m kenny m kenny is offline
Lieutenant General
UK
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: North-East England
Posts: 3,844
m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500]
m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
I'm having an attack of the thicks; could you please expand and explain your answer.
The poster who made the remark has been saying for years that the Allied forces in Normandy were facing weak 2nd rate German Units. He repeatedly makes the untrue claim that the Panzer Divisions in the West were vastly inferior to those deployed in the east and that the Allied victory was a foregone conclusion. He jumps at any chance to downplay NWE-in this case pointing out that post-defeat German numbers (which are going to be vastly smaller than the numbers before the defeat) are going to show rather low 'density' number.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 28 Aug 16, 00:38
Cult Icon's Avatar
Cult Icon Cult Icon is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NE US
Posts: 7,306
Cult Icon is simply cracking [600]
Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
I'm having an attack of the thicks; could you please expand and explain your answer.
He's trolling as usual since I am talking about Fall of 1944, not Normandy.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 28 Aug 16, 00:39
Cult Icon's Avatar
Cult Icon Cult Icon is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NE US
Posts: 7,306
Cult Icon is simply cracking [600]
Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600] Cult Icon is simply cracking [600]
Except for the fact that I am 100% correct and don't care about your posts for years. That's the advantage of studying both fronts and a lot of time periods rather than pigeon-holing oneself to the British/UK vs. Germans in Normandy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
The poster who made the remark has been saying for years that the Allied forces in Normandy were facing weak 2nd rate German Units. He repeatedly makes the untrue claim that the Panzer Divisions in the West were vastly inferior to those deployed in the east and that the Allied victory was a foregone conclusion. He jumps at any chance to downplay NWE-in this case pointing out that post-defeat German numbers (which are going to be vastly smaller than the numbers before the defeat) are going to show rather low 'density' number.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 28 Aug 16, 05:06
m kenny's Avatar
m kenny m kenny is offline
Lieutenant General
UK
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: North-East England
Posts: 3,844
m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500]
m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500] m kenny is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
Except for the fact that I am 100% correct

Of course you are, thats why you need to keep telling yourself you are!
As you keep announcing you 'bought a book' and thus become the instant expert on that subject. Like when you recently were complaining you could not find 2nd AD accounts of actions against 116 PD and are seemingly unaware of the units that made up 2 AD and their AARs are available online. It seems you also believe 116 PD gave away its Panther battalion!!!!.


Does the fact I have all your titles make me 100% right as well?
I also have this one and thus that makes me a little bit more 'right' than you........
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panther-Nor.../dp/2352502322


Your repeated claim that NWE Panzer Divisons were inferior in all respects to those in the east is completely demolished as I posted the information that there were more Combat Worth 1 Panzer Divisions in Normandy than on the entire eastern Front.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 28 Aug 16, 21:43
Metryll's Avatar
Metryll Metryll is offline
General of the Forums
EU
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Toulon, France
Posts: 7,301
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500] Metryll is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
He's trolling as usual since I am talking about Fall of 1944, not Normandy.
CI,

Summer and Fall 44 were radically different situations. Density point has been made to you regarding the first not the second. By Fall 44 Allied advance far exceeded planned logictical needs due to distance. Even if no German unit had been present, most of 12h AG still would have to stop. In order to let VII Corps attack at Aachen, 1st Army had almost to strip V Corps of its supply allotment.

There are 4 Green Books about US logistic available online at CMH :

http://www.history.army.mil/html/boo...ct/ww2-ts.html

Not as sexy that unit history but a must for anyone willing to study US Army in WWII.

Also a point I already made to to you : With US Army don't think Division, think Corps. This is true for any theater including PTO. Otherwise you'll miss important operationnal decisions. This even more needed for AD which often acted as separate CC.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:20.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.