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  #46  
Old 19 Nov 16, 20:14
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Why do people think we have to do the whole damn planet on the first go?
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  #47  
Old 19 Nov 16, 23:00
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I'd say one of the earliest things you need to send along is the means to make glass and tempered glass in quantity. This gives you the ability to assemble green houses that are airtight. Glass can be made with either boron or lead in it as well. This means it will have some radiation absorbing qualities that reduce what gets into the greenhouse itself.

That would bring up the other big necessity: A means to find metal ores and process them into finished products.

If you can build buildings that can support food production and have metals available, you have the means to build a colony location that will support life pretty much indefinitely.

Power is a given. Creating oxygen and a reasonable atmosphere is small peanuts compared to mining ore, making metal, and glass in quantity. Iron should be abundant. But, remember, on Earth metals are almost all found in their oxide state and surface or near surface deposits are almost always associated with deposition by water as scale.

Finding gold deposits would be useful as you could make vapor deposition onto glass for better radiation resistance as is done on many aircraft and space vehicle windows.
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  #48  
Old 19 Nov 16, 23:02
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When I arrived for duty in Yokosuka, Japan, a day after Reagan got shot, they had an inflatable dome for their ice skating rink. Quite roomy.
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  #49  
Old 20 Nov 16, 22:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
When I arrived for duty in Yokosuka, Japan, a day after Reagan got shot, they had an inflatable dome for their ice skating rink. Quite roomy.
Two issues there:

Pressure differential between Mar's atmosphere and the inside and where do you get the "air" to inflate it?

Then there's the dust storms to contend with.

This might be a short-term fix but in the long term glass, maybe multi layer tempered, would be best. It would give you a very damage resistant greenhouse.
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  #50  
Old 20 Nov 16, 23:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Two issues there:

Pressure differential between Mar's atmosphere and the inside and where do you get the "air" to inflate it?

Then there's the dust storms to contend with.

This might be a short-term fix but in the long term glass, maybe multi layer tempered, would be best. It would give you a very damage resistant greenhouse.
Robots are the only way to go there imo. Don't need food, water, or oxygen. Why spend billions to create a habitat that is basically untenable?
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  #51  
Old 21 Nov 16, 01:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianE View Post
The human race could not live there without some heavy genetic mods:
Our bodies are adapted to 1G not Mars 0.38G

https://www.wired.com/2014/02/happens-body-mars/
its about time somebody brought this up....colonists on Mars are going to have to be fairly healthy specimens in a genetic sence. They will also have to have gentic material that is very far removed from one another, to reduce the possibility of birth defects to less than 1%. The colony will not have the resources to deal with children that need special care for a long time, and having to wait for the next 'shuttle' back to earth also draws precious resources away from whwere they are needed.

Two years away from Mother Earth with only other Martians around for sexual/social contact means that each martian colonist is going to have to be selected fairly carefully as charcter's that can gt along with all. Sexual jealousy can cause the best plans to unravel. And onr cant have all the females trying to 'bed' just one or teo of the males...the colony would disolve into chaos.

hving said that, the first human being, the first martian that is, born ob planet will become the most famous individual of his or her day, eclipsing the first man to set foot on Mars, and ranking up there with the first man on the monn, (Armstrong).

There is another factor to consider. Whats the point of a colony on Mars if we have no colony supporting it in the Moon? We'll need a launching platform and a propulsion system that can take off at slow speed from the moon, useing its precious fuel to make the journey and back, rather than using most of it to get out of our own atmosphere.

The Moon colony will be an essential stepping stone for this reason, enabling some kind of regularity to be guaranteed for the shuttles to and from the Martian colony. We also have to make sure that both colonies, ANY colony are APOLTICAL and not involved in Earthly politics. Thiss will prevent us transplanting political problems from one colony to the next, and also prevent those said problems being used as an excuse for one group of colonists to start attacking/persecuting the other group/s.

And all this presupposes, as Rimmer pointed out, that we actually find some body or group or even a single individual with enough spare cash to keep throwing money at the problems that will occur and force each project overbudget, should this happen.

In fact, until we can solve the monetary puzzle of exactly what this colony will do to pay its way, its goingto be a fantastically spectacular White elephant. Its all fair and well to progress the cause of science, but pure science as we know, must be converted into commercial science to have any chance of longevity. Nations won't just throw resources at this....they have problems of a more immediate nature on Earth that hold their attention far more closely, and probably always will until Mars/Moon can turn a hefty PROFIT.

Drusus

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  #52  
Old 21 Nov 16, 07:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Two issues there:

Pressure differential between Mar's atmosphere and the inside and where do you get the "air" to inflate it?

Then there's the dust storms to contend with.

This might be a short-term fix but in the long term glass, maybe multi layer tempered, would be best. It would give you a very damage resistant greenhouse.
I have advocated strong double or triple layer self-sealing plastic roofs for valleys here several times.

As for the inflatable green houses, manufacture the material on Mars and use them until they're worn out. Preferably retiring them before they fail, of course. And you can compress Martian air, just takes more work.

And what about the dust storm? The big flaw in The Martian was that a Martian dust storm wouldn't be a strong breeze on Earth. Part of farming on Mars will be clearing the dust off whatever we're using when necessary.
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  #53  
Old 21 Nov 16, 07:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Robots are the only way to go there imo. Don't need food, water, or oxygen. Why spend billions to create a habitat that is basically untenable?
Not the explorer type, I see.
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  #54  
Old 13 Dec 16, 20:32
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Curiosity Finds Mars May Be Covered in Organic Materials

Curiosity Finds Mars May Be Covered in Organic Materials
EXCERPT:
...
With strong evidence that Mars indeed was habitable at some point in its past and may still be so today scientists began using the rover to learn more about possible niches for life and how evidence of it might be preserved.

A key part of the search focused on organics, a quest that has led to the surprising discovery that organic matter may be widely distributed on Mars.

"To me this is the biggest take-home message. Four years ago, we would never have said this," Eigenbrode said.

Scientists don't know the source of the organics, nor how the material has managed to survive in the harsh radioactive environment on Mars. It was found in samples drilled out from rocks and chemically analyzed.

Whether biological or geologic in origin, a rich supply of organics has implications not only in the search for past life, but also in supporting future endeavors, such as farming.

"That organic matter could be really important," Eigenbrode said. "The door is really open here to an expanded habitability potential."

In related research, California Institute of Technology geologist John Grotzinger, said Curiosity, which has been slowly making its way up Mount Sharp, has found multiple examples of primary igneous minerals being altered.
...
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techno...Etn?li=BBnbfcL

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  #55  
Old 13 Dec 16, 21:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
I have advocated strong double or triple layer self-sealing plastic roofs for valleys here several times.

As for the inflatable green houses, manufacture the material on Mars and use them until they're worn out. Preferably retiring them before they fail, of course. And you can compress Martian air, just takes more work.

And what about the dust storm? The big flaw in The Martian was that a Martian dust storm wouldn't be a strong breeze on Earth. Part of farming on Mars will be clearing the dust off whatever we're using when necessary.
In the long run what you'd want is something that is highly durable in a radiation environment. I'd say two thin sheets of laminated glass that is leaded and borated would be the best. That would make it very resistant to damage and if damaged would be resistant to loss of air pressure. The lead and boron content in the glass would make it radiation resistant.
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  #56  
Old 14 Dec 16, 15:18
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It's about time we forget about human colonization. Robots capacity is increasing in mega leaps each year. They'll be able to work in about any environment with little human interplay, thus cutting down on the cost of any such adventure. Just how much are we needed to be present on the ground in any exploration?
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Old 14 Dec 16, 16:00
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
It's about time we forget about human colonization. Robots capacity is increasing in mega leaps each year. They'll be able to work in about any environment with little human interplay, thus cutting down on the cost of any such adventure. Just how much are we needed to be present on the ground in any exploration?

If all we are going to do is send robots what is the point. We can save even more by canceling the whole space program, just stay hiding on our own little planet until the next big rock sends it into another reset.
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Old 14 Dec 16, 18:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I'd say one of the earliest things you need to send along is the means to make glass and tempered glass in quantity. This gives you the ability to assemble green houses that are airtight. Glass can be made with either boron or lead in it as well. This means it will have some radiation absorbing qualities that reduce what gets into the greenhouse itself.

That would bring up the other big necessity: A means to find metal ores and process them into finished products.

If you can build buildings that can support food production and have metals available, you have the means to build a colony location that will support life pretty much indefinitely.

Power is a given. Creating oxygen and a reasonable atmosphere is small peanuts compared to mining ore, making metal, and glass in quantity. Iron should be abundant. But, remember, on Earth metals are almost all found in their oxide state and surface or near surface deposits are almost always associated with deposition by water as scale.

Finding gold deposits would be useful as you could make vapor deposition onto glass for better radiation resistance as is done on many aircraft and space vehicle windows.
Or...you could just find some caves and use low voltage solar powered sunlamps.

Otherwise, you have a huge energy problem because many of those minerals you list need very high temperatures to melt, and a lot of powerful machinery to process, mine and manufacture.
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Old 14 Dec 16, 18:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
In the long run what you'd want is something that is highly durable in a radiation environment. I'd say two thin sheets of laminated glass that is leaded and borated would be the best. That would make it very resistant to damage and if damaged would be resistant to loss of air pressure. The lead and boron content in the glass would make it radiation resistant.
Again, dirt is cheaper, tougher against micrometeorites and radiation resistant, and you can move it by hand if you have to. And if the hole is already there...

Over 60 years ago scientists predicted that Martian habitats would consist of structures erected in trenches and then filled over to provide full environmental, solar, radiation and wind protection and to help with insulation as well.

That's still Occam's first choice.
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Old 14 Dec 16, 19:22
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We need shelter underground from soler storms, but otherwise we can live as we please.
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