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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #16  
Old 22 Jun 16, 06:54
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Firepower wasn't the issue at LBH. If, as has been suggested by some battlefield archaologists, Custer's battalion was ridden over suddenly and even more quickly than traditionally thought, it probably wouldn't have made much difference whether they had magazine repeaters, let alone a troop of machine guns.

The key word in the quoted account re. the Agar guns in 1862, is 'squadron.' For the guns to have been effective, worth the encumbrance, etc, there would have to have been targets for them on which to direct the weight of their fire. Plains tribesmen didn't operate in squadrons.

Moreover, in reality, I suspect the Gatling gun teams, with what static training they had received, would hardly have been in a position to adapt and respond to the threat as it developed on that day.

More generally, machine guns on field carriages were virtually obsolete before they left the factories as the crews were left too exposed, which the French found out in 1870. In 1876, the Gatling crews would probably have been picked off if they weren't ridden over.

So, what Mark said.

IMHO

By the way, I don't think The Buffs came in squadrons, did they?
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  #17  
Old 22 Jun 16, 07:11
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Seemed like a **** load of them when looking up, all I can say.
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  #18  
Old 22 Jun 16, 07:38
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Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
...Firepower wasn't the issue at LBH. If, as has been suggested by some battlefield archaologists, Custer's battalion was ridden over suddenly and even more quickly than traditionally thought, it probably wouldn't have made much difference whether they had magazine repeaters, let alone a troop of machine guns...
I agree. Things appear to have happened in a short period of time.
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Old 22 Jun 16, 07:41
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More generally, machine guns on field carriages were virtually obsolete before they left the factories as the crews were left too exposed, which the French found out in 1870.
Not quite correct. In action the Belgian Montigny Mitrailluese volley guns used by the French proved completely ineffective being positioned as if it were a light field gun so that it was too far back to cooperate with and support the infantry but in the open and well within the range of the Prussian artillery to which it was exceedingly vulnerable. Prussian infantry adopted an open order formation that minimised the casualties that a volley gun could inflict. The one French success with volley guns in this war was at the battle of Gravelotte when the Mitrailluese was used from cover in the front line. Gravelotte was a French tactical victory, overall the Prussians lost 20,000 casualties to the French 12,000. and Prussian artillery was captured. It was strategically a French defeat with its army being isolated in the fortress of Metz.

Elsewhere the French Foreign Legion (fighting for the first time on domestic soil) used its Gatling guns very effectively at the Battle of Le Mans to provide continuous traversing fire this made Prussian troops very exposed to high casualties even when in open formation. The French custom of referring to all machine guns as mitrailluese has sometimes caused this success to be attributed to the Montigny produced weapon.

The Bavarian army fighting in the same war was equipped with the Feld Gun, this appears to have been similar to the Billinghurst and Requa Battery, it certainly suffered from comparable problems with firing its ammunition clips. Feld guns were used in the Bavarian attack on Orleans but proved ineffective.

After the end of the Franco Prussian War the French appeared to have applied their normal policy for disposing of unsuccessful weapons and sold numbers of Montigny Mitrailluese to other nations, the Chinese government apparently being one purchaser. In 1875 the British government turned down the French offer of this weapon and bought Gatlings instead.

The Gatlings proved very effective against the Zulus at Ulundi

The Maxim was originally field carriage mounted
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  #20  
Old 22 Jun 16, 09:27
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Not quite correct. In action the Belgian Montigny Mitrailluese volley guns used by the French proved completely ineffective being positioned as if it were a light field gun so that it was too far back to cooperate with and support the infantry but in the open and well within the range of the Prussian artillery to which it was exceedingly vulnerable. Prussian infantry adopted an open order formation that minimised the casualties that a volley gun could inflict. The one French success with volley guns in this war was at the battle of Gravelotte when the Mitrailluese was used from cover in the front line. Gravelotte was a French tactical victory, overall the Prussians lost 20,000 casualties to the French 12,000. and Prussian artillery was captured. It was strategically a French defeat with its army being isolated in the fortress of Metz.

Elsewhere the French Foreign Legion (fighting for the first time on domestic soil) used its Gatling guns very effectively at the Battle of Le Mans to provide continuous traversing fire this made Prussian troops very exposed to high casualties even when in open formation. The French custom of referring to all machine guns as mitrailluese has sometimes caused this success to be attributed to the Montigny produced weapon.

The Bavarian army fighting in the same war was equipped with the Feld Gun, this appears to have been similar to the Billinghurst and Requa Battery, it certainly suffered from comparable problems with firing its ammunition clips. Feld guns were used in the Bavarian attack on Orleans but proved ineffective.

After the end of the Franco Prussian War the French appeared to have applied their normal policy for disposing of unsuccessful weapons and sold numbers of Montigny Mitrailluese to other nations, the Chinese government apparently being one purchaser. In 1875 the British government turned down the French offer of this weapon and bought Gatlings instead.

So, yes; vulnerable, although not always ineffective, especially when fired from cover; advisable with an infantry support weapon that had a profile similar to that of a field gun, in the era of the breech-loading rifle.

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The Gatlings proved very effective against the Zulus at Ulundi
Indeed. The Zulus advanced in compact infantry masses providing easy targets for the British troops manning the square at Ulundi. The Mahdist forces on occasion also provided easy targets to British musketry and machine gun fire when advancing en masse.

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The Maxim was originally field carriage mounted
Indeed.



Meanwhile, back on the Greasy Grass, the Springfields are jamming again.
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Old 22 Jun 16, 10:06
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So, yes; vulnerable, although not always ineffective, especially when fired from cover; advisable with an infantry support weapon that had a profile similar to that of a field gun, in the era of the breech-loading rifle.
However it seems that the artillery did for them not the infantry rifles and it was not deployed as an infantry support weapon. Also being a volly gun rather than a true machine gun it was more akin to canister from a quick firing gun than machine gun fire. (The confederates also had one or more guns of this type and used them at to defend Richmond - it was said that they were very good at killing the same man many times over). The real problem was that there was no doctrine established for using them and the same would have applied to the US army's Gatlings if Custer had taken them. The FFL had established a doctrine for using the Gatling and it worked. Similarly a small number of British officers took the trouble to work out exactly how to deploy and use the guns before they were deployed in the field.
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  #22  
Old 22 Jun 16, 10:06
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Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
Firepower wasn't the issue at LBH. If, as has been suggested by some battlefield archaologists, Custer's battalion was ridden over suddenly and even more quickly than traditionally thought, it probably wouldn't have made much difference whether they had magazine repeaters, let alone a troop of machine guns.

The key word in the quoted account re. the Agar guns in 1862, is 'squadron.' For the guns to have been effective, worth the encumbrance, etc, there would have to have been targets for them on which to direct the weight of their fire. Plains tribesmen didn't operate in squadrons.

Moreover, in reality, I suspect the Gatling gun teams, with what static training they had received, would hardly have been in a position to adapt and respond to the threat as it developed on that day.

More generally, machine guns on field carriages were virtually obsolete before they left the factories as the crews were left too exposed, which the French found out in 1870. In 1876, the Gatling crews would probably have been picked off if they weren't ridden over.

So, what Mark said.

IMHO

By the way, I don't think The Buffs came in squadrons, did they?
I don't believe this is true, repeating rifles may not have saved the day for Custer, but it certainly would have helped him greatly. One of the alarming finds was the mangled cartridges that had been found on the battlefield. Apparently, the Springfield cartridges were not extracting in whole and some rifles became useless. In some cases the cartridge had to be removed with a pen knife for follow up shots, not the best way to fight a battle. Also, cartridge placement on the battlefield indicates that men separated and became isolated, again not the best method of implementing effective fire on the attackers.

BTW, about 25% of the Indians used repeating rifles, that may have been one of their greatest advantages over Custer.
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Old 22 Jun 16, 10:13
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I agree. Things appear to have happened in a short period of time.
In open terrain, they saw them coming, it wasn't an ambush.

Custer's men separated and were picked off piecemeal, not a good strategy for a defensive posture. As a result these isolated groups had difficulty defending their positions and they became easy prey.
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Old 22 Jun 16, 12:55
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I don't believe this is true, repeating rifles may not have saved the day for Custer, but it certainly would have helped him greatly. One of the alarming finds was the mangled cartridges that had been found on the battlefield. Apparently, the Springfield cartridges were not extracting in whole and some rifles became useless. In some cases the cartridge had to be removed with a pen knife for follow up shots, not the best way to fight a battle. Also, cartridge placement on the battlefield indicates that men separated and became isolated, again not the best method of implementing effective fire on the attackers.
The cartridge extraction problem was not confined to the Springfield and other single shot breech-loaders used by other nations had similar problems (notably the Martini Henry in use with the British army but that doesn't get shown in the film Zulu ). I believe, from some earlier works on rifles of the period, this was down in part to a lack of quality control over cartridge production and the lack of brass extrusion technology but it was also down to the early breech loading designs so that the two issues combined were a serious constraint on the use of these weapons. Certainly when using an ancient Martini Henry at my University Rifle Club in the 60s even with decent modern made cartridges I still needed a pen knife in my pocket (and I didn't have to deal with a Sioux or a Zulu).
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Old 22 Jun 16, 15:14
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The one French success with volley guns in this war was at the battle of Gravelotte when the Mitrailluese was used from cover in the front line..
success - front line - cover -(breech loading rifles- & artillery - advisable)
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Old 22 Jun 16, 15:16
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In open terrain, they saw them coming, it wasn't an ambush.

Custer's men separated and were picked off piecemeal, not a good strategy for a defensive posture. As a result these isolated groups had difficulty defending their positions and they became easy prey.
Anybody mention 'ambush'?
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Old 22 Jun 16, 15:28
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Anybody mention 'ambush'?
They saw the attacking force well in advance and based on the locations in which they fought spilt up as they retreated to higher ground, a fatal mistake. Next the absence of adequate firepower or lack there of did them in. In small groups they stopped firing to reload, had they been in larger groups of men they could have rotated firing while reloading. This method of continuous firing would have prevented them from being over run as fast as they were, or possibly saving them from death, had they time to retreat in a orderly fashion.
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Old 22 Jun 16, 15:31
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The cartridge extraction problem was not confined to the Springfield and other single shot breech-loaders used by other nations had similar problems (notably the Martini Henry in use with the British army but that doesn't get shown in the film Zulu ). I believe, from some earlier works on rifles of the period, this was down in part to a lack of quality control over cartridge production and the lack of brass extrusion technology but it was also down to the early breech loading designs so that the two issues combined were a serious constraint on the use of these weapons. Certainly when using an ancient Martini Henry at my University Rifle Club in the 60s even with decent modern made cartridges I still needed a pen knife in my pocket (and I didn't have to deal with a Sioux or a Zulu).
This was not an issue with the repeating rifles that I mentioned earlier, they had proven their worth earlier without a cartridge problem.
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Old 22 Jun 16, 15:40
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repeating rifles may not have saved the day for Custer, but it certainly would have helped him greatly.
Um, "would have helped him greatly" do what?

If in the end repeating rifles (which weren't on offer) would have made no difference, i.e. in terms of preventing the anihilation of his command, then surely firepower was not the issue- at least not on the U.S. side.

Clearly, the ability to pick off soldiers from cover, with a superior rate of fire would have been helpful to the Indians.

The 2nd Cavalry contingent with Fetterman at Fort Phil Kearny in 1866 had Spencers, with some scouts' Winchesters, but it didn't help them much. Of course, it's fair to say the odds were much worse than at LBH. Apparently, having kept good order -unlike Custer's men- they lasted about 20 minutes before being overrun. The Indians had few guns that day. Only six soldiers were reported to have died by gunshot.
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Old 22 Jun 16, 16:56
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Custer's command had a number of problems, revealed by the forensic battlefield exam performed a few years ago.

For starters, many of his troops were younger than they should have been and untrained in combat.

The minimum age for a trooper was set at 22, but Custer had many troopers in their teens.

His men were generally in poor health. The forensic exams revealed a great deal of arthritis, even among the young troopers, and a lot of relatively severe dental problems, and well as clear evidence of lack of proper nourishment.

Custer ignored his scouts and split his command, unforgivable and fatal tactical errors.

The Amerinds had better weapons. They could trade for whatever they wanted, and generally their rifles were more modern repeaters.

The greatest advantage the Amerinds possessed, beyond overwhelmingly superior numbers, was their intimate knowledge of the terrain, which they used at every opportunity.

Finally, forensics demonstrated that there was no "last stand" - the troopers broke and fled moving in small groups and even as individuals with no attempt to stand and mount an organized defense, and the Amerinds hunted them down and killed them.
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