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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #46  
Old 23 Jun 16, 17:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooden Wonder View Post

As for the Korean War, the Brits had gone over to Comets and Centurions.
If you mean by 1950, then in general, yes they had. But if you mean 'in theatre' Korea, then though the Cromwell and Centurion was used, there were no Comets.

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  #47  
Old 23 Jun 16, 17:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
It seems you will do anything to avoid referencing your claims

Please deal with this:

Where can I read about 'the complaints' I am very interested in the NA complaints.
Actual words please not some vague reference to a book
That's two dodges in a row: first you conveniently forget your own posts, now you are trying to divert because I successfully answered your question.

Personal attack deleted. Address the post and not the poster. This is not a new concept. Further personal attacks will be deleted on sight and further action will be considered
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Last edited by CarpeDiem; 23 Jun 16 at 17:46..
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  #48  
Old 23 Jun 16, 17:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
"Wrong on nearly every count. The 75mm was an excellent HE lobber. Even when they could have had 100% 76mm gunned M4s commander kept their 75mms. Tank v tank combat was never more than 20% of a tanks actions."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
"Again, I'm calling BS on your claim. Post documented proof of that claim. ... "
From
M4 (76mm) Sherman Medium Tank 1943-65, Steven J Zaloga, Osprey, 2003, Pages 20-21:
Quote:
“Although most tank units were in favor of the new 76mm tank gun, the feeling was not universal due to continuing concern over its poor high explosive ammunition. During a War Department observer’s briefing in November 1944, Major General Grow of the 6th Armored Division indicated that he wanted to increase M4 (76mm) strength to the point where there would be a platoon of M4 (76mm) in each medium tank company. However, he rejected the idea of eliminating the 75mm M4 since his unit still preferred the high explosive firepower of the 75mm guns, and a white phosphorus smoke round was still not available for the 76mm gun.
His tank battalion commanders supported him in this view and Lieutenant Colonel E. D. Lagrew of the 15th Tank Battalion commented that “from our observation, the 76mm HE is not as good as the 75mm. We are satisfied with the 75mm gun and are willing to fight with it.”
Many experienced tankers felt that the 75mm gun was more versatile because of the availability of a greater range of ammunition, and that its shortcomings in tank fighting were less critical since they could be overcome by tactics. For example, the 37th Tank Battalion of the 4th Armored Division proved very reluctant to shift to the M4 (76mm) even after the extensive tank fighting against Panther tanks in Lorraine in September 1944.
The head of Combat Command A, Colonel Bruce Clarke, had to plead with his tank battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Creighton Abrams, to take an M4A3 (76mm) as his own tank, realizing that no crew would be willing to do so without Abrams’s example. “
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
" ... Also, answer my question on how the M-4s gun 'lobbed' rounds.

verb (used with object) to fire (a missile, as a shell) in a high trajectory so that it drops onto a target.
A fair number of WW2 tanks had at least a degree of ability to "lob" rounds and the sighting equipment to suit; although the range of angles for trajectory is obviously somewhat restricted when the gun is enclosed within the confines of a tank hull and turret.
Both the German PzKpfw IV (in particular the short-gunned versions) and the 75mm M4 were pretty good for this kind of work. I seem to recall reading that the Sherman's sights were quite well designed for it. Other tanks were not so well suited.

Much depended, of course, on the design priorities of the tank in question and its intended balance of battlefield roles. In general it was recognized that a tank would need to be able to assist with the suppression of enemy strongpoints and troop concentrations, as part of its "breakthrough" role and the support of infantry, with the level of priority given to fighting enemy tanks varying from one nation to another according to doctrine and other factors.
A good number of nations, including Britain for example, started with war with different classes of tanks designed for varying roles. The idea of an "all round" tank developed rather gradually.
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Last edited by panther3485; 23 Jun 16 at 18:29..
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  #49  
Old 23 Jun 16, 18:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
It seems you will do anything to avoid referencing your claims

Please deal with this:



Where can I read about 'the complaints' I am very interested in the NA complaints.
Actual words please not some vague reference to a book
Apart from the tit for tat insults (go back to the play ground boys) - the Sherman was the best general purpose tank. In specialised roles (shelled area, tank killer etc etc) yes there were tanks that could do that specific job better but the Sherman could do them all well enough and moreover was very adaptable to modification and remained so post war. So if what you wanted was shelled area and infantry support the Churchill was better, if you wanted a tank killing tank its possibly a toss up between German and Soviet designs and so on but if you don't want to have to have specialised tanks for each role then the Sherman did them all.
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  #50  
Old 23 Jun 16, 19:23
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All this is Sherman basics. I am at a loss understand why these 'crap' myths (which have been trashed several times in a number of threads) still persist.

Numbers for 75mm/ 76mm/105mm in the US 1st, 3rd and 9th Armies in December 1944.

1st 587/329/113
3rd 604/130/87
9rd 280/153/61

Total 1471/612/261
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  #51  
Old 24 Jun 16, 07:27
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Another debate on the merits of the Sherman tank with a different thread title.

IMHO the Sherman was the best all around tank in WWII with the Soviet T-34 and the German Mark IV (with the HV 75mm) close seconds.

I'm sure one of the armored experts here could post the number of Shermans actually deployed in the front lines of NWE and the number of these that were destroyed beyond repair along with most of or the whole tank crew. Would that not put an end to the bickering on this subject?

Regards,Kurt
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  #52  
Old 24 Jun 16, 08:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Knispel View Post

I'm sure one of the armored experts here could post the number of Shermans actually deployed in the front lines of NWE and the number of these that were destroyed beyond repair
Maybe a chart where we could see how many M4 survived the war in one piece compared to the total of (say) Panthers that survived . I reckon 50% of Shermans and 5% of Pathers. That would be a better metric.

Last edited by m kenny; 24 Jun 16 at 08:38..
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  #53  
Old 24 Jun 16, 17:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Knispel View Post

I'm sure one of the armored experts here could post the number of Shermans actually deployed in the front lines of NWE and the number of these that were destroyed beyond repair along with most of or the whole tank crew. Would that not put an end to the bickering on this subject?

Even better. Someone can provide you with first-hand data from 333 British tanks casualties in 1945. The data is very detailed and the conclusions supported with a mountain of evidence. I urge all those still wedded to tales of 5 burning crew in each Sherman to read carefully.





Last edited by m kenny; 24 Jun 16 at 17:33..
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  #54  
Old 24 Jun 16, 20:50
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The above in a nutshell.
For every 3 tanks penetrated 2 men are 'lost' to the Unit.
For every KO tank with 5 dead there are 6 KO tanks with no crew wastage
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  #55  
Old 24 Jun 16, 22:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
I have had contact with him and he is a professional victim.
As I said I wouldn't doubt he has PTSD which would go along with this. Have you considered this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
He plays the Vet card every time anyone says a bad word about him. He even sued Carlisle for being anti vet. He lost. You do know what 'Carlisle' is?
Hmm...it's about 100 miles west of me. Let me think and get back to you. Throw another one at me and ask what Temple is and where its campuses are.

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Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
Note the damages he go for the University crusade., $1. Token damages for a token slight because, if you read the court papers, the University corrected the matter he complained about long before he decided to sue.
I wouldn't say long before IIRC from what I read. Did you get why the court would not drop the case once they changed their sexual harassment policy? The court did not trust that the university would not change the policy back again and insisted the case would be decided.

I'm simply saying that you might want to put the personal, negative interaction aside and consider whether this man might have a problem that you might want to factor in before continuing to paint him so badly here.
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  #56  
Old 24 Jun 16, 22:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
I'm sure one of the armored experts here could post the number of Shermans actually deployed in the front lines of NWE and the number of these that were destroyed beyond repair along with most of or the whole tank crew. Would that not put an end to the bickering on this subject?

Regards,Kurt
Kurt - If anyone supplied numbers of tanks destroyed and casualties this would not tell us much at all. Tanks are destroyed by many causes and often are facing different adversaries that can throw off comparisons of tank kills. Zaloga points out that the Brits faced a density of AT fire in Normandy that was greater than anything seen anywhere else. How do we factor that in?
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  #57  
Old 24 Jun 16, 23:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Minds are like parachutes - they have to be open in order to work.

Posters here have already agreed that the Sherman was a compromise design to meet weight criteria for shipping, and that means it was not the best design and never was.


Proof of this is...oh, there is none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
It was the best compromise available, with a lot of shortcomings. History has already amply demonstrated those shortcomings, and no amount of forum revisionism is going to change that.
I've read that post war it was seen as the best tank of the war and that the revisionism is along the lines of what you are spouting...and I guess this guy DeJohn falls in company with you. Belton Cooper's view of the M4 is another example of a more current revision view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
The 75mm medium velocity gun was upgraded to the 76mm higher velocity gun - proof that the designers recognized that shortcoming even if no one here does.
I'm afraid simply saying this does not make it true. The 75mm fired an excellent HE round, the lion's share of the work a tank would do in WWII. It also fired an AP round that was capable of taking out enemy armor, even the big, bad Panther. If you look at the numbers Mike K has put up it should be a reminder (or education) of the fact that WWII was not a tank v. tank slugfest, that destruction from HE was the main job for a tank. Yes the states started using a 76mm and the Brits a 17pdr. but this was not done to the majority of M4's. Again Mike has put up numbers that bear this out. What do you see as this "shortcoming" that you speak of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Under armored and under gunned are two adjectives that must always be used in conjunction with the Sherman.
Not really something that was seen only with the M4, was it? An improvement in the field is hardly an indication that the design was mediocre, more an indication that the tank could be improved on in the field, why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
American went through several generations of warships, submarines, fighters and bombers during the short period of WWII, but only one generation of tanks. Logic alone dictates that we recognize that particular shortcoming for what it was and stop trying to whitewash history.
I would have to ask what "logic" you are talking about. We did not go through several generations of tanks yet we won the war. We landed in France and made good progress pushing the Germans out and invading Germany months later. Please tell me where the need was for several more generations of tanks? Tell me of battles or campaigns where allied forces were devastated because the M4 was so mediocre.

As long as you are comparing weapon systems and their evolution please continue. How many generations of small arms did we go through? Armored cars? APC's? When is it mandatory to see multiple generations of a weapon system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
The terms the tankers on all sides applied to the Sherman - "Tommy Cooker" and "Zippo" - did not just appear for no reason at all.
Why did they appear? Who started using them? Explain it and maybe you will understand it better.
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Last edited by JBark; 25 Jun 16 at 09:17..
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  #58  
Old 25 Jun 16, 00:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Kurt - If anyone supplied numbers of tanks destroyed and casualties this would not tell us much at all. Tanks are destroyed by many causes and often are facing different adversaries that can throw off comparisons of tank kills. Zaloga points out that the Brits faced a density of AT fire in Normandy that was greater than anything seen anywhere else. How do we factor that in?
Yes you have to factor everything in since we are talking about the best all-around tank remember?.....

Regards,Kurt
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  #59  
Old 25 Jun 16, 00:55
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I do not understand the last post by a Sherman tank expert. Throwing in all the intangibles is what makes this fun. The Allies had complete air superiority after D- day and often carpet bombed observed German Tank locations.

C'mon J.B. you can do better then that.....

Regards,Kurt
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Old 25 Jun 16, 08:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
I do not understand the last post by a Sherman tank expert.
I have the same confusion over this outburst by an Uber-Panzer expert

Quote:
the number of Shermans actually deployed in the front lines of NWE and the number of these that were destroyed beyond repair along with most of or the whole tank crew.
Also:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
The Allies had complete air superiority after D- day and often carpet bombed observed German Tank locations.
And yet the proportion of all KO tanks that were hit by AP shot (55% of Allied, 45% of German from memory)is not that much different for either side. Another fact that seems to have escaped you.
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