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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #16  
Old 16 May 16, 09:43
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Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
To be honest, I may be wrong but I don't imagine digging canals was much of a practice amongst the peoples of the Mississippi & Great Lakes in the C18th.The people of the Mound Builder culture were long dead. Organising for hunts or war was one thing; civil engineering projects were a different sort of enterprise entirely. Why would they bother when the riverine tribes had developed canoe building technology that enabled them to portage across watersheds?
Lewis & Clark used dug out canoes much latter: http://treenotes.blogspot.ca/2007/03/dugout-canoes.html
The Birch Bark Canoe was far superior in it's lightness, carrying capacity, maneuverability & speed as proven by Samuel de Champlain against the Iroquois.
If a tribe didn't have Paper Birch growing within it's area it would have to trade for them or make war with & steal them from another.

Last edited by SmackUm; 16 May 16 at 09:49..
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  #17  
Old 17 May 16, 07:36
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The dugout 'pirogue' was robust and quickly made with a minimum of skill, more suitable for the needs of the Lewis and Clark Corps of Discovery once they had to leave the keel boat behind at the Mandan villages, and reflected the materials available on the Upper Missouri.

How is the dugout relevent to the digging of canals?
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  #18  
Old 18 May 16, 12:58
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Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
The dugout 'pirogue' was robust and quickly made with a minimum of skill, more suitable for the needs of the Lewis and Clark Corps of Discovery once they had to leave the keel boat behind at the Mandan villages, and reflected the materials available on the Upper Missouri.

How is the dugout relevent to the digging of canals?
Portage is a dirty word over time important portages were provided with canals & locks were the Saddle Point permitted.
The dug out is much heavier than the Birch Bark Canoe this is why NWC Explorer Alexander Mackenzie was first across the continent in 1793 @ Bella Coola, British Columbia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_point
Some famous portages like Grand Portage (8.5 miles long) by the Lakehead & Methye Portage (12 miles long) by Fort McMurray, Alberta had Saddle Points that changed much more in elevation making them impossible to make navigable.
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  #19  
Old 20 May 16, 19:30
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I am afraind I dont understand. Why are you mentioning dug outs at all in relation to Michilmackinac (etc)? And are you suggesting that the tribes of the lakes not only dug canals but installed lock systems?
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  #20  
Old 22 May 16, 11:28
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I am afraind I dont understand. Why are you mentioning dug outs at all in relation to Michilmackinac (etc)? And are you suggesting that the tribes of the lakes not only dug canals but installed lock systems?
Yes.... I would think the tribes capable of producing some kind of canal & lock system to connect the Mississippi River to Lake Michigan @ Chicago Portage w/ simple tools & bare hands.

Most Native American designs were made by copying nature in this case watching a beaver make a dam would put the idea in their heads.
This is kind of monkey see monkey do technology made from watching animals in nature like if a squirrel eats a nut it must be safe to eat.
General observations of birds/ animals migrations to and from the Summer Grounds, to the Wintering Grounds during Spring & Fall are of life & death importance.

Many tribes including Early Stone Age Europeans paid close attention to the weather & their surroundings in order to better survive.
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Old 22 May 16, 11:48
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Originally Posted by SmackUm View Post
Yes.... I would think the tribes capable of producing some kind of canal & lock system to connect the Mississippi River to Lake Michigan @ Chicago Portage w/ simple tools & bare hands.
Even the Egyptians didn't come up with this kind of thing.
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  #22  
Old 22 May 16, 13:18
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Lock gates, hinges, sluice shutters and gears whittled from pecan shells by trained beavers.

I'd watch that.
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  #23  
Old 22 May 16, 15:04
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I don't think ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
Lock gates, hinges, sluice shutters and gears whittled from pecan shells by trained beavers.

I'd watch that.
... there's much in the historical or archeological record to confirm that North American Woodland First Nations people built canal locks and associated systems, but they were certainly damming to restrict water flow and building extensive fishing weir structures before the Egyptians were building pyramids. I lived in the locality of the Mnjikaning Fish Weirs for some 20 years and I'm quite familiar with the area:

http://www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep-...u.aspx?id=9679

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnjikaning_Fish_Weirs



Coastal Tribes which depended even more on fish and aquatic animals had even more elaborate weirs.
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  #24  
Old 22 May 16, 15:14
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You gave us links for the weirs, but not for the building of the locks. Whatcha got for that?
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  #25  
Old 22 May 16, 17:04
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And you've ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
You gave us links for the weirs, but not for the building of the locks. Whatcha got for that?
... given us plenty of indications in the past that you can read, but that ability seems to have escaped you here? Try again:

"I don't think there's much in the historical or archaeological record to confirm that North American Woodland First Nations people built canal locks and associated systems."

Should you still be a little hazy, you've got the links to the weirs, I'll summarize the rest; there's "NO EVIDENCE OF LOCKS". Furthermore, regarding the issue in question, my post including info. from the National Park Service including the geography of the barrier between the drainage basins, MAKES NO MENTION OF F****** LOCKS!!! There are no caissons, pumps, gates, lock gears ...

IT IS A DEAD PARROT!!!

Better?
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  #26  
Old 22 May 16, 17:32
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So, no evidence of locks?
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  #27  
Old 24 May 16, 08:53
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Even the Egyptians didn't come up with this kind of thing.
I'm thinking a log at the top of a dam which you would pin or un pin by driving stakes into the earth or removing them just enough to give clearance would act as a primitive lock.

Last edited by SmackUm; 24 May 16 at 09:01..
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  #28  
Old 24 May 16, 08:56
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Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
Lock gates, hinges, sluice shutters and gears whittled from pecan shells by trained beavers.

I'd watch that.
So would I... Beavers were extinct in the UK but according to http://facts.net/beaver-facts/ Interesting Facts #18 they aren't any longer.

Beavers are known for building Dams, Canals & Lodges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver

A primitive lock would consist of a log or series of logs at the top of a dam which could be removed and repined after use by driving spikes in the mud & mudding back up the holes.
With no Lock gates, hinges, sluice shutters and gears whittled from pecan shells by specially trained beavers water travel was seasonal at best.

This is why most early American Indian Tribes traveled during the Spring & Fall high water mark to and from the Summer & Wintering Grounds.

Last edited by SmackUm; 24 May 16 at 09:51..
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  #29  
Old 25 May 16, 13:53
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I had Stackable Stop Logs in mind as a Flood Gate... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoplogs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floodgate
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  #30  
Old 26 May 16, 08:38
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... given us plenty of indications in the past that you can read, but that ability seems to have escaped you here? Try again:

"I don't think there's much in the historical or archaeological record to confirm that North American Woodland First Nations people built canal locks and associated systems."

Um
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... there's much in the historical or archeological record to confirm that North American Woodland First Nations people built canal locks and associated systems,
Easy, Tiger. I think your presentation was a little misleading, rather than there being anything wrong with his reading.... "I dont think" was buried above the fold.
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