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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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Old 04 May 16, 12:44
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Battle of St. Louis

The Battle of St. Louis in North America is part of the larger European conflict ( Anglo-Spanish War 1779-1783).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_St._Louis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_...olutionary_War

The Spaniards captured the British Fort Michilimackinac & Fort St. Joseph in 1781 destroying the fort and capturing the British flag.
Quite an accomplishment having started their attack from the Mississippi River and reaching the Great Lakes.
They used a replica of the early Viking Long Boat a design Europeans were quite familiar with.
The Hudson's Bay company is well known for using the Viking Long Boat design @ York Factory aka York Boats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_boat
At some point the Spaniards must have had to roll their Long Boats on logs to portage them probably near Fort Dearborne, Illinois cutting a pathway to the Great Lakes from the Mississippi.
Probably a most difficult portage even worse than Dirty Missions WFN (World Fishing Network).

Any good book suggestions?

Regards, Patrick
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  #2  
Old 04 May 16, 12:53
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Checked the UM card catalog?
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Old 04 May 16, 14:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackUm View Post
The Battle of St. Louis in North America is part of the larger European conflict ( Anglo-Spanish War 1779-1783).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_St._Louis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_...olutionary_War

The Spaniards captured the British Fort Michilimackinac & Fort St. Joseph in 1781 destroying the fort and capturing the British flag.
The Spanish never captured Fort Michilimackinac.

Tuebor
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Old 04 May 16, 14:26
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Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
The Spanish never captured Fort Michilimackinac.

Tuebor
Fort Michilimackinac was in American hands at the time and allied with Spain during this time period I presume.
Thanks for the reply I'm imagining that the Spaniards used mules from St. Louis at the portage from the Mississippi to Lake Michigan as well as block and tackle, snatch blocks and rope to mechanical advantage.

Regard's Patrick
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Old 04 May 16, 15:23
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Originally Posted by SmackUm View Post
Fort Michilimackinac was in American hands at the time and allied with Spain during this time period I presume.
Thanks for the reply I'm imagining that the Spaniards used mules from St. Louis at the portage from the Mississippi to Lake Michigan as well as block and tackle, snatch blocks and rope to mechanical advantage.

Regard's Patrick
Have you driven from St. Louis to Chi Town? Not much climbing needed.
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Old 04 May 16, 19:13
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Have you driven from St. Louis to Chi Town? Not much climbing needed.

I've taken I-35 from Minneapolis to Oklahoma City is Chi town short for Chicago.
I'd have to agree I think that the American Midwest is fairly flat so rolling a boat over logs would be fairly good going w/ snatch block & rope + Horse or Mule Train.
On my dads side there are some Fur Traders Louis Bisson Peoria, Illinois being one he lived around this neck of the woods maybe that Long Boat procession passed his cabin.
Baptiste Bisson was another Fur Trader from La Pointe, Wisconsin area he partnered up with some Englishmen/ Americans Peter Pond & Alexander Henry (The Elder) North West Company of Adventurers.
They explored & trapped the Fort McMurray area suffering from a forest fire today the town is being evacuated.
What does UM Catalog mean is it a search engine for Books on the time period?

Cheers, Patrick
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Old 04 May 16, 19:26
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Check the distance from the Chicago River to Lake Michigan back in the day. That will give you the portage distance
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Old 04 May 16, 19:49
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Patrick, ...

... I think you're confusing Forts Michilimackinac, Mackinac and 2 Forts that go by the name St. Joseph. Both Fort Michilimackinac, on the south shore of the Straits of Mackinac and Fort St. Joseph, on the lower St. Joseph River in southern Michigan (NOTE this is NOT the Fort St. Joseph, on St. Joseph Island on the north side of Lake Huron, southeast of The Soo and part of Ontario) were originally wood stockade type French fort/trading posts.

Both forts were taken over by the British in 1761 with the fall of New France, then taken from the British during Pontiac's putative uprising of former French/Canadien Allied First Nations in 1763. At this point, the British treated both primarily as trading posts, although small military garrisons returned during the Revolution.

In 1780, the British began construction of a stone fort on Mackinac Island in the Straits of Mackinac, to replace Fort Michilimackinac, located in a far less defensible position on the south shore to the west. When Fort Mackinac was completed the next year, i.e. 1781, Fort Michilimackinac was simply abandoned; from this point on "Fort Michilimackinac" and "Fort Mackinac" become virtually synonymous for the stone fort on the Island.

That said, I've never read anywhere, that Spanish forces "captured the British Fort Michilimackinac" ... "in 1781", and neither do the sources you provided. But after the 1780 British Fur Trader/First Nation attack on St. Louis, a small Spanish/First Nation force DID raid Fort St. Joseph, on the lower St. Joseph River in southern Michigan, in 1781, seize and hold the fort for a day before departing. Their route, from Wiki was "The Spanish and Native force travelled via the Illinois River and Kankakee River to modern Dunns Bridge, Indiana, where it turned Northeast and marched towards Fort St. Joseph." In other words, they simply sailed/paddled up the Illinois, a Mississippi tributary, there was no portage from the Mississippi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackUm View Post
The Battle of St. Louis in North America is part of the larger European conflict ( Anglo-Spanish War 1779-1783).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_St._Louis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_...olutionary_War

The Spaniards captured the British Fort Michilimackinac & Fort St. Joseph in 1781 destroying the fort and capturing the British flag.
Quite an accomplishment having started their attack from the Mississippi River and reaching the Great Lakes.
They used a replica of the early Viking Long Boat a design Europeans were quite familiar with.
The Hudson's Bay company is well known for using the Viking Long Boat design @ York Factory aka York Boats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_boat
At some point the Spaniards must have had to roll their Long Boats on logs to portage them probably near Fort Dearborne, Illinois cutting a pathway to the Great Lakes from the Mississippi.
Probably a most difficult portage even worse than Dirty Missions WFN (World Fishing Network).

Any good book suggestions?

Regards, Patrick
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Last edited by Marmat; 05 May 16 at 12:22..
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Old 05 May 16, 14:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... I think you're confusing Forts Michilimackinac, Mackinac and 2 Forts that go by the name St. Joseph. Both Fort Michilimackinac, on the south shore of the Straits of Mackinac and Fort St. Joseph, on the lower St. Joseph River in southern Michigan (NOTE this is NOT the Fort St. Joseph, on St. Joseph Island on the north side of Lake Huron, southeast of The Soo and part of Ontario) were originally wood stockade type French fort/trading posts.

Both forts were taken over by the British in 1761 with the fall of New France, then taken from the British during Pontiac's putative uprising of former French/Canadien Allied First Nations in 1763. At this point, the British treated both primarily as trading posts, although small military garrisons returned during the Revolution.

In 1780, the British began construction of a stone fort on Mackinac Island in the Straits of Mackinac, to replace Fort Michilimackinac, located in a far less defensible position on the south shore to the west. When Fort Mackinac was completed the next year, i.e. 1781, Fort Michilimackinac was simply abandoned; from this point on "Fort Michilimackinac" and "Fort Mackinac" become virtually synonymous for the stone fort on the Island.

That said, I've never read anywhere, that Spanish forces "captured the British Fort Michilimackinac" ... "in 1781", and neither do the sources you provided. But after the 1780 British Fur Trader/First Nation attack on St. Louis, a small Spanish/First Nation force DID raid Fort St. Joseph, on the lower St. Joseph River in southern Michigan, in 1781, seize and hold the fort for a day before departing. Their route, from Wiki was "The Spanish and Native force travelled via the Illinois River and Kankakee River to modern Dunns Bridge, Indiana, where it turned Northeast and marched towards Fort St. Joseph." In other words, they simply sailed/paddled up the Illinois, a Mississippi tributary, there was no portage from the Mississippi.
Thanks for the help now I can see my mistake... I don't know how I missed this... The name game thing again tomato... tomato.
Fort St. Joseph St. Joseph River, Michigan now that's not that far from Chicago at all...

Regards, Patrick
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Old 06 May 16, 11:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Check the distance from the Chicago River to Lake Michigan back in the day. That will give you the portage distance
I've pulled up Chicago Portage check this out... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Portage
Apparently there was an Ancient Canal built by the Indians just after the last Ice Age through a slough (Mud Lake) which connected the Chicago & Illinois Rivers.

Cheers, Patrick
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Old 06 May 16, 12:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackUm View Post
I've pulled up Chicago Portage check this out... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Portage
Apparently there was an Ancient Canal built by the Indians just after the last Ice Age through a slough (Mud Lake) which connected the Chicago & Illinois Rivers.

Cheers, Patrick
Okay, was it still in working order at the time in question?
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Old 06 May 16, 21:04
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Working order?

Quote:
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Okay, was it still in working order at the time in question?
French/Canadien explorers and traders had been using this portage off and on for over 100 years before the time in question, they didn't need much more than a trail. The 600 lb., 35+' Montreal Freight Canoe was routinely carried overland for miles by 4 Coureurs des Bois or Voyagers. This description of the geography of the barrier between the drainage basins is from the Midwest Archaeological Center, National Park Service:

"With the lowering of the floor of the Chicago outlet (i.e. post glacier) the flow of water down the outlet grew lesser and finally stopped. During this lowering the Chicago River was formed and the Des Plaines River flowed easterly into this river and out into Lake Michigan. Then a barrier or ridge was formed east of Kedzie Avenue which was part of the Continental Divide. The crest of this barrier, which was ten and one half feet above present Lake Michigan, was located where South Sacramento Avenue formally crossed the West Fork South Branch Chicago River directly north of the intersections of Thirty First Street and Sacramento Avenue. The entire barrier formed a mile and one half long strip of prairie extending from Albany Avenue and Thirty First Street to where South Leavitt Street crossed the river. This barrier separated the Mississippi and St. Lawrence basins so that water falling on the west side of the barrier backed up the waters of the Des Plaines River and turned its flow southwesterly down the Des Plaines Valley leaving a slough or small lake five miles in length. This was Mud or Portage Lake. The prairie on the west side of the barrier containing Mud Lake was eight feet above Lake Michigan...Mud Lake was from one and one half miles wide and from two to sixteen feet below the adjoining prairie formed by the Continental Divide."

This was a piece of cake for the traders of the North West Company, just coming into existence at the time; I'm sure a Spanish/First Nation force could traverse the barrier with their transport, just not nearly as well In any case they elected to attack Fort St. Joseph from a probably unexpected overland route, catching the post completely by surprise, it worked for them.
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Old 06 May 16, 21:12
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Interesting. Thanks.
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Old 07 May 16, 14:28
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Okay, was it still in working order at the time in question?
The canal was probably in working order for a very long time. If a Birch Bark Canoe was unavailable through trade it would be much better to navigate a dug out in a canal system than have to carry it on any portage.
Students in a Dug Out Canoe... http://www.chicagoportage.org/stc_units.htm

Cheers, Patrick
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Old 16 May 16, 01:07
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To be honest, I may be wrong but I don't imagine digging canals was much of a practice amongst the peoples of the Mississippi & Great Lakes in the C18th.The people of the Mound Builder culture were long dead. Organising for hunts or war was one thing; civil engineering projects were a different sort of enterprise entirely. Why would they bother when the riverine tribes had developed canoe building technology that enabled them to portage across watersheds?
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