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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Weapons of War > Air Power

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Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

View Poll Results: Fighter aircraft for Finland for 2020->
Eurofighter 3 8.33%
Gripen NG 13 36.11%
Lightning II 3 8.33%
Rafale 3 8.33%
Super Hornet (Advanced?) 14 38.89%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 08 Sep 16, 13:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
The Gripen, while a good aircraft is a bit small and light for Finnish requirements (which is [maritime] strike as well as air defence).
I think that the Gripen will have a max payload of 6000 kg. I have seen the number 6500 kg as well. It has a pretty good range on internal fuel (2500km).

The current F/A-18 C has a max payload of 6200 kg and a max range of maybe 2200 km.

The RBS-15 AShM weighs 800 kg.
2 x Meteor (185kg) = 370kg
2 x IRIS-T (87.4kg) = 174.8 kg

A 300 gallon drop tank weighs about 1272 kg
A 450 gallon drop tank weighs about 1907 kg

The JASSM cruise missile weighs 1021 kg.

It could work for Finland IMHO. The new Gripen E is like a modern single engine F/A-18 C.
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  #32  
Old 08 Sep 16, 14:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
The Gripen, while a good aircraft is a bit small and light for Finnish requirements (which is [maritime] strike as well as air defence).
As it happens, fortunately the Gripen system was designed from the bottom up with the double requirement of handling airdefence and dedicated naval strike.

The whole Swedish Cold War doctrine of how to defend against a seriously meant Soviet invasion attempt, was based on the realisation that the only actual way to stop one, would be to hit and sink a Soviet invasion task force on transit across the Baltic. Should the Soviets reach Swedish shored, odds were very bad on being able to evict the from whatever beach they might hit. And once ashore and a beach-head secured, the game was essentially up for Sweden and it would only be a matter of trying to delay a Soviet occupation — hoping for cavalry from somewhere else to ride to the rescue.

Anyway, as a consequence one of the things the Gripen system did well from its inception was precisely naval strike missions. What has changed since the Cold War is that back in the 1980's the RBS 15 missile gave Sweden some at the time pretty much unique capabilities — but that gap has been closed for quite a while now, and an upgrade is badly needed.

It tends to be pointed out that Swedish and Finnish requirements for these things are pretty much identical because, well, they are — defence of national airspace and naval strike.
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  #33  
Old 09 Jun 17, 11:24
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There is a flight show going on ATM at Helsinki. Sort of related to the fighter project. Where Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon & Gripen are flying - rest have ground shows. Red Arrows & Midnight Hawks will be flying!

Might even be visible via live stream. http://areena.yle.fi/1-4156342

WWII era Viima is currently flying.


EDIT: Nice pic of the Finnish capital from one of the Midnight Hawks
A bit loose formation but acceptable given that it is inverted while doing a loop - on the lower mid-left you can see UNESCO world heritage site and on the right the Finnish capital.

Last edited by Vaeltaja; 09 Jun 17 at 15:15..
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  #34  
Old 15 Jun 17, 01:18
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Get the same model of F-15 as what Singapore's got, F-15S.
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  #35  
Old 16 Jun 17, 06:21
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In other news the Gripen E version just completed its maiden flight. Thoroughly uneventful, everything going as expected.
https://youtu.be/2FZlOWIJWCo

Last edited by Johan Banér; 16 Jun 17 at 06:30..
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  #36  
Old 16 Jun 17, 06:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
In other news the Gripen E version just completed its maiden flight. Thoroughly uneventful, everything going as expected.
https://youtu.be/2FZlOWIJWCo
A first rate aircraft.
An obvious choice for Finland, I think.
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  #37  
Old 16 Jun 17, 07:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
A first rate aircraft.
An obvious choice for Finland, I think.
The Finns can build them themselves, if they like, I'm sure.

It's an obvious way to deepen the defense collaboration already place.

If I were the Finns however, I would try to use it to preassure Sweden to acquire the Global Eye system (replacing Eyrie Eye) ASAP as well, and make it part of the Finnish deal. AND make the Swedes beef up the StriC air-defense system, back to the active STRIL 90 level, while accelerating the purchase of that long-range AA missile system... (Lets go with the SAMP/T system, at least until the US regains its senses...)

All of which would make the air defense situation over the Baltic a lot less like a walk in the park for Russia, should that become relevant.

It's not just about the planes here.
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  #38  
Old 16 Jun 17, 07:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
The Finns can build them themselves, if they like, I'm sure.

It's an obvious way to deepen the defense collaboration already place.

If I were the Finns however, I would try to use it to preassure Sweden to acquire the Global Eye system (replacing Eyrie Eye) ASAP as well, and make it part of the Finnish deal. AND make the Swedes beef up the StriC air-defense system, back to the active STRIL 90 level, while accelerating the purchase of that long-range AA missile system... (Lets go with the SAMP/T system, at least until the US regains its senses...)

All of which would make the air defense situation over the Baltic a lot less like a walk in the park for Russia, should that become relevant.

It's not just about the planes here.
If you start talking on that level you kinda need to bring the Finnish Navy and Finnish Army to the discussion as well. Reason being that Finns have acquired Norwegian NASAMS II system for air defense. It uses AMRAAMs - (or are they called SLAMRAAMs when ground fired?) but it seems it might be moving to use (SL)AMRAAM-ER (which is actually Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile with AMRAAM seeker) on that system. Meanwhile the Navy wants boats too and air defense for them. And they are keen on VLS type solutions, and most likely option for them would be US/NATO style Mk 41 or 57 launcher so that the potential opponent (who you could never guess ) would not be able to ID the load out. Which also speaks for ESSMs as well because of the quad cell-loading thing. I know it is possible to have SAMP/T or Aster's in VLS in ships as well, and even in Mk 41 style VLS (Sylver) but it is something that has to be agreed.

I personally would not mind seeing the whole triservice thing choose European tech. But we shall see. At least now there are alternatives to the US tech.
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  #39  
Old 16 Jun 17, 08:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
If you start talking on that level you kinda need to bring the Finnish Navy and Finnish Army to the discussion as well. Reason being that Finns have acquired Norwegian NASAMS II system for air defense. It uses AMRAAMs - (or are they called SLAMRAAMs when ground fired?) but it seems it might be moving to use (SL)AMRAAM-ER (which is actually Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile with AMRAAM seeker) on that system.
SLAMRAAMS when ground fired, yes.

Bit sketchy info about range and altitude? And it's still in development?

What Sweden is looking at is a true long range, high altitude system, i.e. either Patriot or the SAMP/T. The current SAMP/T Block 1 is claimed to effective up to 600 km, up to 20 000 m altitude. The B1NT goes to 1500 km, and there is supposed to be a Block 2 around soon.

Might Finland be in the market for airborne radar btw?
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  #40  
Old 16 Jun 17, 10:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
SLAMRAAMS when ground fired, yes.

Bit sketchy info about range and altitude? And it's still in development?
In deployment. Relatively short ranged. Which is the reason for the AMRAAM-ER - or ESSM with AMRAAM seeker thing - which is in development or testing. It should bump the range quite a bit (from 15-25 km to 50+ km).
Quote:
What Sweden is looking at is a true long range, high altitude system, i.e. either Patriot or the SAMP/T. The current SAMP/T Block 1 is claimed to effective up to 600 km, up to 20 000 m altitude. The B1NT goes to 1500 km, and there is supposed to be a Block 2 around soon.
It would be tempting to have that but i doubt we could afford unless all services that could use it would co-operate.
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Might Finland be in the market for airborne radar btw?
In their wildest dreams. And literally - Air Force probably dreams of it. But i doubt we would be able to have one in near future.
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  #41  
Old 20 Jun 17, 00:52
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  #42  
Old 08 Jul 17, 02:57
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If I were Finland I would go with the Super Hornet Advanced since they already operate the early model Hornets.
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  #43  
Old 08 Jul 17, 10:34
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One thing is the collaboration between Finns and the Israelis on some of their surface to surface missiles. I wonder if you could put Spike NLOS in a configuration for air launch. A 20km stand off Anti-Tank missile launched by fighter at Angels 20 would be hell on armored units. With air launch you might even be able to use them to take out SAM sites outside their launch envelope as well, allowing 4th gen aircraft to compete better in a 5th gen environment.

I think that in the budget department the Super Hornet would be the deal. However, I agree that Gripen would tighten ties with Sweden and that's very important as well.

I look forward to a unique new bird either way. Finns have some unique service providers, and I'd love to see what the Israelis could to to take either bird to the next level.
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  #44  
Old 11 Jul 17, 18:00
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Quote:
In other news the Gripen E version just completed its maiden flight. Thoroughly uneventful, everything going as expected.
I was lucky enough to be there.

Don't get me wrong, it is a great aircraft, but I am not sure they will go with it. Prepared to be wrong on this as it's as much the package (including IP) as the aircraft. Brazil got everything and that has also been offered to India so Saab may manage to grab it. However, the RFI feedback was all contenders came in below budget which may suggest that Boeing and Lockheed have cooked up something quite appealing.
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  #45  
Old 11 Jul 17, 20:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
I was lucky enough to be there.

Don't get me wrong, it is a great aircraft, but I am not sure they will go with it. Prepared to be wrong on this as it's as much the package (including IP) as the aircraft. Brazil got everything and that has also been offered to India so Saab may manage to grab it. However, the RFI feedback was all contenders came in below budget which may suggest that Boeing and Lockheed have cooked up something quite appealing.
It's clearly a buyer's market right now. There are too many companies pushing their machines, so now they have to offer very attractive deals, and not only on price, but all kinds of supplemental services it seems.

SAAB just withdrew its bid for the Belgian procurement of new fighters. It seems the Belgians have made it a condition that IF you get to sell them these fighters, you are also contractually obliged to service them anywhere in the world, should Belgium chose to go to war there — including handling what air-refueling the Belgian air-force might need.

Apparently the Swedish government concluded that, yes, Sweden could technically meet such a requirement on SAAB's behalf, if the government wants to — but it's FAR too extensive a commitment just in order to sell some fighter aircraft. Effectively Belgium isn't going to acquire this capability itself, but somehow make it part of the fighter-deal.

The amount of things many of the smaller NATO member states CANNOT do is rather long...
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