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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

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Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

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  #61  
Old 07 Aug 14, 16:48
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So much jumping to conclusions going on.

Where has anyone even remotely identified any possible Ukrainian aircraft flying near MH17 as SU-25? Ukraine does have some SU-27s and Mig-29s that they have not let rot into the ground yet.

I also see everyone carries on about R-60 IR Air to Air missiles, yall do realize that Ukraine posses such stuff as R-27R and R-27ER that are NOT IR. Yall might not want to look at the specs on those either, seems they can have a vertical separation of up to 12,000 meters.

All this stuff is irrelevant anyway.

The search for bodies has stopped. The gathering of evidence from the crash site never even began. The lack of any ATC chatter or cockpit voice recordings is a glaring omission as well. The west has what it wants already anyway, public condemnation of Russia.
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  #62  
Old 07 Aug 14, 18:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDog View Post
So much jumping to conclusions going on.
The least to say.

Quote:
Where has anyone even remotely identified any possible Ukrainian aircraft flying near MH17 as SU-25? Ukraine does have some SU-27s and Mig-29s that they have not let rot into the ground yet.

I also see everyone carries on about R-60 IR Air to Air missiles, yall do realize that Ukraine posses such stuff as R-27R and R-27ER that are NOT IR. Yall might not want to look at the specs on those either, seems they can have a vertical separation of up to 12,000 meters.
For now this is more or less the thesis supported by Russian government. Looks like improbable but for those unwilling to verify what a Su 25/R-60 are and how they operate, this can sound like a viable hypothesis.

Several blogs also put a lot of conspiracy theories which don't help one to have a clear picture.

Quote:
All this stuff is irrelevant anyway.

The search for bodies has stopped. The gathering of evidence from the crash site never even began. The lack of any ATC chatter or cockpit voice recordings is a glaring omission as well. The west has what it wants already anyway, public condemnation of Russia.
Russian was blamed after KAL 007 shot down in 1983, I don't see such a position in media, at least in France but from I've even Fox News don't seem to argue so.
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  #63  
Old 08 Aug 14, 01:40
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The latest 'theory' I have seen is that the rebels were supposed to shoot down an Aeroflot flight as part of a 'false flag' operation to blame the Ukrainians and justify a Russian invasion.

I think this has about the same amount of truth as the Su-25 story.
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  #64  
Old 08 Aug 14, 02:09
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
The latest 'theory' I have seen is that the rebels were supposed to shoot down an Aeroflot flight as part of a 'false flag' operation to blame the Ukrainians and justify a Russian invasion.

I think this has about the same amount of truth as the Su-25 story.
Most likely. Among blogs, it is quite common to have authors using some kind of tautology as reasoning : I'm sure P is true, I use a list of cherry picking facts, connecting them using P, then conclude that P is true. Of course if P is false, the whole edifice fall apart.
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  #65  
Old 08 Aug 14, 02:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
The latest 'theory' I have seen is that the rebels were supposed to shoot down an Aeroflot flight as part of a 'false flag' operation to blame the Ukrainians and justify a Russian invasion.

I think this has about the same amount of truth as the Su-25 story.
Yep,. The Su25 story was made up by the Russians to try and deflect blame. Hence it being pushed by the Russian propaganda posters. The above one is probably just invited by a crazy.
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  #66  
Old 08 Aug 14, 23:01
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The above one is probably just invited by a crazy.
This has actually come out from Ukrainian Security Service head Valentyn Nalyvaichenko.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ne/504793.html

Last edited by BigDog; 08 Aug 14 at 23:17..
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  #67  
Old 08 Aug 14, 23:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDog View Post
This has actually come out from Ukrainian Security Service head Valentyn Nalyvaichenko.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ne/504793.html
Is there a non-Russian source for that?

Just asking.
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  #68  
Old 08 Aug 14, 23:51
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Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Is there a non-Russian source for that?

Just asking.
Actually, Gary, the Moscow Times barely qualifies as a Russian source. It is a Finnish-owned newspaper originally established by a Dutch entrepreneur and is linked to the International Herald Tribune.
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  #69  
Old 09 Aug 14, 00:04
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  #70  
Old 09 Aug 14, 01:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDog View Post
This has actually come out from Ukrainian Security Service head Valentyn Nalyvaichenko.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ne/504793.html
According to a BBC map, there was a single Aeroflot flight but quite west of war zone :

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28356745

I think that we can safely put this conspiracy theory to the trash bin.
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  #71  
Old 09 Aug 14, 06:15
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Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Is there a non-Russian source for that?

Just asking.
Yeah there were a few, bit harder to locate as stuff slides from the present.
I suppose the Kiev Post would be good enough?
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...ne-359765.html
And this as well, no idea about this place.
http://www.forexlive.com/blog/2014/0...on-in-ukraine/
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  #72  
Old 10 Aug 14, 12:45
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Malaysian press charges Ukraine government shot down MH 17

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Mal...40809-576.html
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  #73  
Old 10 Aug 14, 13:24
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Malaysian press charges Ukraine government shot down MH 17

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Mal...40809-576.html
Oddly enough you can't find such from the New Strait Times which is the one the 'opednews' claims to cite...

You can however find this: http://www.nst.com.my/node/21682 - that starts with Defence Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein today denied reports in the social media that Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH17 was shot down by fighter jets.

And in which Malaysian defense minister says that: "Based on military intelligence and evidence from a portion of fragments found, it is not likely the bullets were used from air to air but from surface to air. Whether these were owned by Ukraine or the rebels who supplied by Russia. the bullets must have come from BUK System and this matter cannot be denied by Europe, Nato or Russia"
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  #74  
Old 10 Aug 14, 14:17
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Ron Paul: US 'likely hiding truth' on downed Malaysian Flight MH17

http://rt.com/usa/179284-ron-paul-mh17-ukraine/

Former Congressman Ron Paul said the US knows ‘more than it is telling’ about the Malaysian aircraft that crashed in eastern Ukraine last month, killing 298 people on board and seriously damaging US-Russian relations in the process.

In an effort to inject some balance of opinion, not to mention pure sanity, into the ongoing debate over what happened to Malaysian Flight MH17, Ron Paul is convinced the US government is withholding information on the catastrophe.

"The US government has grown strangely quiet on the accusation that it was Russia or her allies that brought down the Malaysian airliner with a Buk anti-aircraft missile," Paul said on his news website on Thursday.


Read rest on RT.
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  #75  
Old 10 Aug 14, 16:10
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Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Oddly enough you can't find such from the New Strait Times which is the one the 'opednews' claims to cite...
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925
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