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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

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Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

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  #31  
Old 06 Aug 14, 16:24
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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
How a Su 25 can fire a missile at an altitude it can reach only after having jettison it ?
What is a range of R-60?
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  #32  
Old 06 Aug 14, 17:40
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Originally Posted by hawker_gb View Post
What is a range of R-60?
7 to 10 km in a good day at very high altitude. Somewhere around 3 to 4 km if fired from low level.

R-60 doesn't pack enough punch to down an airliner. Past events have shown that it may take out an engine from an airliner but that is it. Which would have left plenty of time for the airliner to call out the problem. And it would also have made any kind of precision shooting with any kind of cannon impossible.

Another rather crucial issue is that for an aircraft to reach the firing position with R-60 (especially of the types flying without radar like Su-25) it would have needed to have been visible in the Russian radar prior to the downing - quite a bit prior to. Yet there was nothing. Only potentially unknown target appeared after the impact and that could just as well be debris especially as we now know how widely the debris spread out from the MH17.

Also the impacts are not consistent with 30 mm cannon fire. Neither the caliber or the minor detail that 30 mm cannon uses primarily explosive rounds fits with the damage.
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  #33  
Old 06 Aug 14, 17:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker_gb View Post
What is a range of R-60?
R-60 ? Ok : 10km max. Now, what kind of missile is R-60, an Infra Red or Radar Homing ?
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  #34  
Old 06 Aug 14, 18:21
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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
R-60 ? Ok : 10km max. Now, what kind of missile is R-60, an Infra Red or Radar Homing ?
Infrared.
Why?
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  #35  
Old 06 Aug 14, 18:54
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Originally Posted by hawker_gb View Post
Infrared.
Why?
IR missiles seek for heat, that is engine. Now problems for you to solve if you support the R-60 hypothesis :

Question #1 : How do you explain that none of the engine show damage due to an explosion ?

http://news.oneindia.in/internationa...e-1487478.html

Question #2 : How do you explain that in 1978, a B 707 flight 902 was hit by a R-60 missile which killed two but landed safely but not MH 17 ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_902

Question #3 : How do you explain that with a small warhead, tail separated and landed several km away ?

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...m/1276156.html
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  #36  
Old 06 Aug 14, 18:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
IR missiles seek for heat, that is engine. Now problems for you to solve if you support the R-60 hypothesis :

Question #1 : How do you explain that none of the engine show damage due to an explosion ?

http://news.oneindia.in/internationa...e-1487478.html

Question #2 : How do you explain that in 1978, a B 707 flight 902 was hit by a R-60 missile which killed two but landed safely but not MH 17 ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_902

Question #3 : How do you explain that with a small warhead, tail separated and landed several km away ?

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...m/1276156.html
Look,i dont support hypotesis that Su-25 shoot jet down.
Maybe yes and maybe no.

Question is,what SU-25 doing there close to liner?
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  #37  
Old 06 Aug 14, 18:57
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Read this hypotesis:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Byib...duaHVORHM/edit
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  #38  
Old 06 Aug 14, 19:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker_gb View Post
Look,i dont support hypotesis that Su-25 shoot jet down.
Maybe yes and maybe no.
So why posting about an hypothesis you don't believe in and even ask why a Su 25 ws there ?

Quote:
Question is,what SU-25 doing there close to liner?
What do you mean by close ?
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  #39  
Old 06 Aug 14, 19:25
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Originally Posted by hawker_gb View Post
Not an hypothesis, a common conspiracy theory.
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  #40  
Old 06 Aug 14, 19:45
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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
So why posting about an hypothesis you don't believe in and even ask why a Su 25 ws there ?



What do you mean by close ?
Well Russian MoD said it was close.(3-5km)
But what they know? You have better insights then them.

Dunno really what you try to accomplish here. Plane was there and Russian MoD state that.

Really,boredom aside,what you want with all those question?
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  #41  
Old 06 Aug 14, 20:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker_gb View Post
Well Russian MoD said it was close.(3-5km)
But what they know? You have better insights then them.
I'm not arguing about what Russians says but what you consider as close. And even if a Su 25 was there, why it should be of any interest since you recognize yourself this hypothesis to be wrong ?

Quote:
Dunno really what you try to accomplish here. Plane was there and Russian MoD state that.Really,boredom aside,what you want with all those question?
I, for the nth time, debunk a junk theory with facts to that you posted for the nth time...

If you post, others can do. It's called a forum. Welcome in West...
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  #42  
Old 07 Aug 14, 01:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker_gb View Post
Well Russian MoD said it was close.(3-5km)
But what they know? You have better insights then them.
They didn't. What they had was a radar signal close to the MH17 after something had already hit it. Which Russians for some reasons decided that it had to be an Ukrainian Su-25 without pretty much any evidence to support such a conclusion. It could just as well have been the debris or sections from the plane which btw did fall roughly that distance away from the main wreckage (where the transponder etc. are located).

Quote:
Dunno really what you try to accomplish here. Plane was there and Russian MoD state that.
No. Radar signal there and Russian MoD made themselves look like idiots by claiming to having identified as an aircraft (let alone as Su-25) with just a radar.
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  #43  
Old 07 Aug 14, 02:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
I'm not arguing about what Russians says but what you consider as close. And even if a Su 25 was there, why it should be of any interest since you recognize yourself this hypothesis to be wrong ?



I, for the nth time, debunk a junk theory with facts to that you posted for the nth time...

If you post, others can do. It's called a forum. Welcome in West...
Well Su25 was there and you didnt debunk that.
Nobody claim for sure who shot liner down.

And your funny "welcome to the west" can only give you one way ticket to ignore list.
Chill dude.
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  #44  
Old 07 Aug 14, 03:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker_gb View Post
Well Su25 was there and you didnt debunk that.
Why such a fact would be needed to debunk ? This is at least the 4th time you make such a claim, the 4th asked in what it is relevant and the 4th that your answer is simply restating the claim.

Quote:
Nobody claim for sure who shot liner down.
So what ?

Quote:
And your funny "welcome to the west" can only give you one way ticket to ignore list.
Chill dude.
Fine. A forum is a place of discussion, if you are bored with such a process, stop hurt yourself, don't post there.
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  #45  
Old 07 Aug 14, 03:20
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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
Why such a faxt would be needed to debunk ? This is at least the 4th time you make such a claim, the 4th asked in what it is relevant and the 4th that your answer is simply restating the claim.



So what ?



Fine.
Look man,you arguing with yourself mostly.
Facts are provided by Russian MoD and they didn't say that Su25 shot liner down.

My question is what Su25 have to do 3-5 km from liner.
Nothing more nothing less.
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