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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

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Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

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  #16  
Old 17 Apr 16, 18:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
It is, considering how much Nazis hate Jews.
Do they still ?
I read in some mainstream publications, that they hate ME and African immigrants more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
In fact, a lesser man might consider this a sign that the Nazi's aren't controlling Ukraine as a) if they ran the nation they wouldn't need to specifically put a Jew in charge but could choose someone who isn't such an untermensch and b) they don't need the approval of the US/EU backers since, as we've been told, they are actively involved in promoting the Nazi junta and thus don't care about the Nazis in power.
Lets's deal those Hypotheticals :
a.) Do lesser man still believe in the concept of "Der Untermensch", after having been many years under exposure of the main stream media ?
Sounds kind of naive to bear such assumptions.

b.) On the top level, they might call themselves "model Democrates" with offshore accounts being tolerated (Porochenko). On the medium level, they need to have the executive, and they happen to be guess what "Banderas"?
SS insignia militia's, and what not ? and other paramilitary, to proudly present themselves with Nazi insignia. And the general populace are left with living under their intimidation tactics, not being allowed to watch Russian movies and TV, speak Russian or uttering any discontent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
Many might be fooled into thinking that this is another blow against the narrative that Nazis are running Ukraine.
What I have learned is, that Main stream media consumers are fooled like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
It takes a real keen intellect to look past what is in front of us and instead believe in the true secret plot beneath it all.
I guess whatever I might have to say on this subject will be dismissed by you as an opinion of a man wearing a tinfoil hat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
So we have the most powerful Jew in the nation, and he... isn't working the Nazis? But I thought the Nazis controlled Ukraine. They do control Ukraine, right?
And I thought he was just an Ukrainian citizen, not an Israeli. Interesting, that the main stream media made it an "race" issue.

So you believe that Wikipedia is in conflict with National Geography ?
That's why you stated that Chameleons do not use cammo ?

What kind of a biology expert are you ?
I hope not the forums "Doctor" kind
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  #17  
Old 18 Apr 16, 03:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konzev View Post
Do they still ?
I read in some mainstream publications, that they hate ME and African immigrants more.
According to this forum they hate russians most of all...or in other words everyone who is not them.
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  #18  
Old 18 Apr 16, 09:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konzev View Post
Do they still ?
Do they- Do Nazis still hate the Jews?! Did you just ask that on a history forum?

Quote:
Lets's deal those Hypotheticals :
I can't see how they have anything to do with the Nazis happily electing a Jew as their leader.

Quote:
What I have learned is, that Main stream media consumers are fooled like that.
Which is why people should only consume non-mainstream media, like VICE and Fox News.

Quote:
I guess whatever I might have to say on this subject will be dismissed by you as an opinion of a man wearing a tinfoil hat.
Not at all. It's not a conspiracy theory to believe that there are Nazis running Ukraine from the shadows who are using puppet groups and politicians to do their bidding, even going so far as to put a Jew into the highest office.

No, that's not a conspiracy theory. It's just stupid.

Quote:
And I thought he was just an Ukrainian citizen, not an Israeli. Interesting, that the main stream media made it an "race" issue.
Do you think Israeli and Jew are the same thing? And why bring up race as an issue when it wasn't one before?

Quote:
So you believe that Wikipedia is in conflict with National Geography ?
That's why you stated that Chameleons do not use cammo ?

What kind of a biology expert are you ?
I hope not the forums "Doctor" kind
Wikipedia is only as good as the sources it quotes from.
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  #19  
Old 18 Apr 16, 09:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post


Wikipedia is only as good as the sources it quotes from.
........ and often uses out of context and without checking their validity
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  #20  
Old 20 Apr 16, 17:15
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The Nazis did their part of the job of storming the barricades and then terrorising the Russian-populated areas into submission in Kharkov, Mariupol and Odessa. Since then they've been either pushed out of power or sent to get slaughtered at the frontline as part of the NazGuard. While previously the oligarchs in power were allies of the ultranaionalists, later they pushed aside these movements and appropriated part of their ultranationalist ideas.
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  #21  
Old 21 Apr 16, 05:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
That Nazis wouldn't elect a Jew to be the head of state. Why, is there a section of Mein Kampf that says otherwise?
The question here is whether Nazi is being used in a specifically historical context or as a euphemism.
In a historical context, no - people like Parubiy, the Right Sector, Azov, the Ukrainian Socialist-Nationalist party and the Svoboda party are not Nazis. First off, and most obviously, they are not Germans. Second, many of the Ukrainian paramilitary groups receive funding from Jewish oligarchs such as Kololomoisky, etc. They have not made overtly strident declarations against Jews, gypsies, the feeble-minded, etc.
As a euphemism, however, for extremist militant nationalism, advocating violence against national minorities (in this case - ethnic Russians), the heavy use of symbolism and organised marches, organisation into paramilitary forces, the rewriting of history to fit a nationalist ideology and a hostility towards parliamentarism and democracy, then yes - people like Parubiy and the rest cited above are nazis.
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  #22  
Old 21 Apr 16, 07:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skoblin View Post
The question here is whether Nazi is being used in a specifically historical context or as a euphemism.
Problem for that argument is that when the term is not used in either in historical context or in some sort of jocular context (i.e. 'grammar nazi' or the like) then it tends to be seen as an utterly foolish (childish & immature to be exact) statement which only demeans the person who used it.
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  #23  
Old 21 Apr 16, 09:50
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Poutine and his minions have overused the "Nazi Ukraine" cry and it's caused them more damage than it helped. Russia no longer has any democratic liberal opposition left. They are dead, in prison or in Switzerland trying to escape the regime assassins. Now Kremlin is trying to introduce new thought crime laws penalizing for any criticism of the aggression on Crimea and Ukraine. This is fantastic, I never thought I'd live to see events like this after the expulsion of Russian occupants from Europe in 1991 but this is the new reality.
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  #24  
Old 21 Apr 16, 10:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Problem for that argument is that when the term is not used in either in historical context or in some sort of jocular context (i.e. 'grammar nazi' or the like) then it tends to be seen as an utterly foolish (childish & immature to be exact) statement which only demeans the person who used it.
The flaw in your reasoning is that it is the Ukrainian far-right itself which has made efforts to identify itself with Hitler's national-socialist movement, whether it is the use of torch-light parades, Nazi-symbolism, awarding hero status to Ukrainian SS members and even the adoption of the name Social-National party instead of the less obvious National-Socialist party. It is hardly the case of being childish and immature when people call them on a historical identification that they themselves are actively promoting.
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  #25  
Old 21 Apr 16, 13:08
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Originally Posted by Skoblin View Post
The flaw in your reasoning is that it is the Ukrainian far-right itself which has made efforts to identify itself with Hitler's national-socialist movement, whether it is the use of torch-light parades, Nazi-symbolism, awarding hero status to Ukrainian SS members and even the adoption of the name Social-National party instead of the less obvious National-Socialist party. It is hardly the case of being childish and immature when people call them on a historical identification that they themselves are actively promoting.
Some of them might qualify to be called neo-Nazis. That i do not dispute.

But as Nazis. No. Not by a long shot. Any attempt to do is practically seen as an attempt to equate the far-right with deeds of the Nazis (which to be frank is non-sense as you are well aware, Odessa was not by any measure equal to Auschwitz) and as an attempt to trivialize the terrible crimes of the actual Nazis. In other words an attempt to denigrate a group by calling them Nazis will only denigrate and defame the ones making the claim.
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  #26  
Old 21 Apr 16, 13:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Some of them might qualify to be called neo-Nazis. That i do not dispute.
But as Nazis. No. Not by a long shot. Any attempt to do is practically seen as an attempt to equate the far-right with deeds of the Nazis (which to be frank is non-sense as you are well aware, Odessa was not by any measure equal to Auschwitz) and as an attempt to trivialize the terrible crimes of the actual Nazis. In other words an attempt to denigrate a group by calling them Nazis will only denigrate and defame the ones making the claim.
It is they who are identifying themselves with the Nazis. If they do not wish it, they only need stop dressing, acting and talking the part. And no, one need not wait for another Auschwitz to occur in order to identify those who may be capable of repeating it.
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  #27  
Old 21 Apr 16, 13:36
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Originally Posted by Skoblin View Post
It is they who are identifying themselves with the Nazis. If they do not wish it, they only need stop dressing, acting and talking the part. And no, one need not wait for another Auschwitz to occur in order to identify those who may be capable of repeating it.
So far, far from all that have been called Nazis in Ukraine — especially in Russia — self-identify as such.
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  #28  
Old 21 Apr 16, 13:56
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Originally Posted by Skoblin View Post
It is they who are identifying themselves with the Nazis.
Which may at a pinch make them neo-Nazis.
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  #29  
Old 21 Apr 16, 14:00
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Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
Russia no longer has any democratic liberal opposition left. They are dead, in prison or in Switzerland trying to escape the regime assassins.
Opposition is present and its leaders were a subject of a keen public interest recently:
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-.../27541867.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...former-7674570
The story is quite indicative of regime's true tactics when dealing with opposition: mocking and humiliating instead of unimaginative bulling.
Another story is that popularity of Russian liberal opposition became completely marginal even in Moscow - formerly their principal bulwark. That demonstrates very clearly that political sympathies and sentiments of the public has changed dramatically in those crisis years.
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  #30  
Old 21 Apr 16, 14:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skoblin View Post
In a historical context, no - people like Parubiy, the Right Sector, Azov, the Ukrainian Socialist-Nationalist party and the Svoboda party are not Nazis.
People who have swastika tattoo, make photo with a nazi flag or nazi salute are without doubt neonazis. There is a quite appreciable number of them among Ukrainian radical nationalists. On a more general level Ukrainian nationalist discourse demonstrates a resurrection of certain archaic elements pertinent to Nazi doctrine. See, for example, popularity of all that discussion about racial purity of Slavic Ukrainians compared with Fenno-Tatar Muoscovites, ranting about defense against barbaric Asiatic hordes etc. Which doesn't automatically makes everybody involved a real Nazi. On an even more general level in the last years we saw quite a resurrection of political nationalism in Europe, after it was almost declared dead and buried by progressives and liberals, see all those words about the end of history, globalization, European unification project and so on. Which creates a new reality, of which Ukraine and Russia are only a part.
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