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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Syrian Civil War, 2011 - ?

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Syrian Civil War, 2011 - ? From a local uprising to a proxy war, we discuss the chaos in Syria.

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  #46  
Old 05 Apr 16, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
And what?



Ok, so my criticism of Snowy over his grand accusations of propaganda based on posting the "wrong" article which didn't totally fit Snowy's agenda - means that I'm going ballistic? Wow,



No matches found.




I don't know, you've got to bring them up here.



I took two articles published within a shot timespan in two leading Western newspapers, which contained gross distortions and outright blatant lies. This can only be considered propaganda and nothing else.

Neither you, nor any other of the proponents of the "free independent non-propagandistic Western media" theory uttered a single squeal in response to my dissection of these articles. I understand, when the "free media" are caught with their pants down lying about the guy you love to hate, you'd better keep your mouth shut



Excuse me, how come criticising someone for falsely accusing a person of "spreading propaganda" equate with disproving the propaganda of New York Times and The Guardian? If you think I didn't disprove the outrageous claims of these papers, please explain why, and preferably in the appropriate thread. If you think I was wrong to criticise Snowy for accusing Konzev of propaganda, please explain why.

I didn't say "calm down and stop being so excitable over nothing". My point was that there was no fault in Konzev's post at all for posting one of the many articles from the same source written by people from the same journalist pool and verified by the same editor.

And finally, if you think the argument about the Russian president actively sponsoring the revival of Stalin's personality cult (something absolutely outrageous) is the same kind of "nothing" as arguing whether a forum member is spreading "DDR propaganda", there's no point in arguing, really.
I wanted to go easy on you. You already did your time, so there is no need to drag up a post that got you banned as an example of "going ballistic".

Still, the lack of awareness about how subjective judgement calls being treated as objective fact - "this is clearly going ballistic while I have never done so" - is part and parcel of the whole irony thing.

That and a lack of awareness when someone is being a little tongue in cheek and just pointing out that we're all not perfect - especially when it comes to saying that another poster looks to be spreading that most subjective of items: "propaganda".

And I'm sure mistranslations will never be mentioned again when discussing current events, eh?
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  #47  
Old 05 Apr 16, 19:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
I wanted to go easy on you. You already did your time, so there is no need to drag up a post that got you banned as an example of "going ballistic".

Still, the lack of awareness about how subjective judgement calls being treated as objective fact - "this is clearly going ballistic while I have never done so" - is part and parcel of the whole irony thing.

That and a lack of awareness when someone is being a little tongue in cheek and just pointing out that we're all not perfect - especially when it comes to saying that another poster looks to be spreading that most subjective of items: "propaganda".

And I'm sure mistranslations will never be mentioned again when discussing current events, eh?
Now you have the Mod power, I remember when you criticized Skoblin for using it against you.
  #48  
Old 05 Apr 16, 19:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konzev View Post
Now you have the Mod power, I remember when you criticized Skoblin for using it against you.
You mean when he (gasp) altered the title of a thread?

Yeah, we disagreed, but not only was I still always able to change it back if I'd wished, we settled that minor disagreement personally and with good cheer. We would be lucky if more people settled their disagreements so.

Not sure what your point is, however. Are you hoping he'll change a title of yours so you can join our club?

Fair warning, we charge membership dues on the first of every month.
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  #49  
Old 05 Apr 16, 19:40
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Back on topic, it looks like there were reports yesterday about ISIS using mustard gas against government forces.

However, there was no independent confirmation at the time it seems, and even RT is now reporting that sources in the government forces are now denying that such an attack took place.
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  #50  
Old 08 Apr 16, 04:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
I wanted to go easy on you. You already did your time, so there is no need to drag up a post that got you banned as an example of "going ballistic".
I most clearly did not bring up any posts which got me banned. I have no idea which post you are referring to.

Quote:
Still, the lack of awareness about how subjective judgement calls being treated as objective fact - "this is clearly going ballistic while I have never done so" - is part and parcel of the whole irony thing.
This is not my point, as I've said. One thing is getting excited over small things, another is persistently accusing one of "DDR propaganda" because of the translation which doesn't change the meaning of the article and choosing the "wrong kind of article from the same source".

Quote:
That and a lack of awareness when someone is being a little tongue in cheek and just pointing out that we're all not perfect - especially when it comes to saying that another poster looks to be spreading that most subjective of items: "propaganda".
Oh, so now Gerry was "tongue in cheek", and spread it over half dozen posts persisting in his propaganda accusations? And I suppose you consider it wrong that Gerry accused Konzev of propaganda, don't you?

Quote:
And I'm sure mistranslations will never be mentioned again when discussing current events, eh?
I'm all for correcting mistranslations. I'm against jumping with propaganda accusations against such innocuous mistranslations like this one. Do you agree?
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  #51  
Old 08 Apr 16, 05:06
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This is the original,

Quote:
Die Armee der syrischen Regierung profitiert bei der Rückeroberung von Palmyra offenbar von der massiven Hilfe durch russische Luftangriffe.
"The Syrian government army, in their re conquest of Palmyra, apparently profited from the massive help of Russian air attacks."

This is Konzev's translation :

Quote:
With the help of massive and relentless Russian air strikes.
The meaning has been changed in translation.

The adjective "massive" pertains to the help in one, to the airstrikes in the other, the word "relentless" was added and does not appear in the original.

That's a very effective technique, with plausible deniability, much more efficient than an outright lie, which can be easily disproven.
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  #52  
Old 08 Apr 16, 07:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
This is the original,



"The Syrian government army, in their re conquest of Palmyra, apparently profited from the massive help of Russian air attacks."

This is Konzev's translation :



The meaning has been changed in translation.

The adjective "massive" pertains to the help in one, to the airstrikes in the other, the word "relentless" was added and does not appear in the original.

That's a very effective technique, with plausible deniability, much more efficient than an outright lie, which can be easily disproven.
Oh my gosh!

The airstrikes were massive, they helped the Syrians - and they were quite instrumental in this help. This is the point of the German original line and Konzev's translation. This is how 99.99% people would understand this, except for those with an axe to grind, seeking for propaganda and disinformation under their beds.

What does the word relentless change here, I beg you? Does this word somehow overstate the help from the Russian air force, making "massive" even more "uber-massive"? Does this word deny the fact of American airstrikes which were mentioned in other articles? Pray tell me, what kind of context or meaning is altered by this?
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  #53  
Old 08 Apr 16, 08:24
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It shows that Konzev's object is to present his own opinion rather than give a truthful and accurate translation to the ACG of what's printed in Der Spiegel.

That's all.

The fact that you're still here defending him - while he settled the issue with a joke is quite telling also.
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  #54  
Old 08 Apr 16, 09:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
It shows that Konzev's object is to present his own opinion rather than give a truthful and accurate translation to the ACG of what's printed in Der Spiegel.

That's all.

The fact that you're still here defending him - while he settled the issue with a joke is quite telling also.
If massive, it has to be relentless, that is my understanding of how to translate "Der Spiegel " magazine article. Russia only uses very few planes, thus they have to be relentless used, get it ?
To explain this point, I tried to avoid a more elaborate explanation.
If that is bothering you, it's your problem, not mine.
  #55  
Old 08 Apr 16, 10:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konzev View Post
If massive, it has to be relentless, that is my understanding of how to translate "Der Spiegel " magazine article. Russia only uses very few planes, thus they have to be relentless used, get it ?
To explain this point, I tried to avoid a more elaborate explanation.
That's your opinion.

Not that of Der Spiegel, as your post might have led someone unable to read German to conclude.

What Der Spiegel states is that in liberating Palmyra the Syrian government army *apparently received massive help from Russian air attacks*.

Hence my comment.

Whether these bombardments were "relentless "or need have been, or not, should be left to the reader to conclude.

That's intellectual honesty.
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  #56  
Old 08 Apr 16, 22:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
That's your opinion.

Not that of Der Spiegel, as your post might have led someone unable to read German to conclude.
It is that of Der Spiegel tranlated, into German.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
What Der Spiegel states is that in liberating Palmyra the Syrian government army *apparently received massive help from Russian air attacks*.
Hence my comment.
Here is my post in it's untranslated form:

Quote:
Offensive gegen IS: Syrische Regimetruppen rücken auf Palmyra vor
Quote:
Die Armee der syrischen Regierung profitiert bei der Rückeroberung von Palmyra offenbar von der massiven Hilfe durch russische Luftangriffe.
as you see, sourced differently than yours. And no use of the word
*apparently

That's intellectual honesty ?, to use your own words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post

Whether these bombardments were "relentless "or need have been, or not, should be left to the reader to conclude.
Because they where relentless.
Viewing If they where or not, might be a perspective problem, and not a problem that a reader should conclude, as you self decided, by not concluding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
That's intellectual honesty.
Well, than throw your moral weight in, and see how it balances, if you must.
  #57  
Old 10 Apr 16, 08:01
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  #58  
Old 10 Apr 16, 15:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
It shows that Konzev's object is to present his own opinion rather than give a truthful and accurate translation to the ACG of what's printed in Der Spiegel.

That's all.

The fact that you're still here defending him - while he settled the issue with a joke is quite telling also.
As you can see by the discussion below, nothing has been settled.

Once again, in order to demonstrate the difference between his opinion and "truthful and accurate translation" you must answer my questions above.

I will repeat them again, highlighting them in bold:

What does the word relentless change here, I beg you? Does this word somehow overstate the help from the Russian air force, making "massive" even more "uber-massive"? Does this word deny the fact of American airstrikes which were mentioned in other articles? Pray tell me, what kind of context or meaning is altered by this?
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Old 10 Apr 16, 20:30
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Has there been any coverage of the fact that "moderates" backed by various "free" countries of the world, employed gas - chlorine most probably - to attack the Kurdish part of Aleppo?

I would say again, because this time as well as the last one, there are videos of the attack.
  #60  
Old 11 Apr 16, 05:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konzev View Post
as you see, sourced differently than yours. And no use of the word
*apparently
Quote:
Die Armee der syrischen Regierung profitiert bei der Rückeroberung von Palmyra offenbar von der massiven Hilfe durch russische Luftangriffe.
No it's the same.

"profitiert" ..."offenbar" (von)

translates as "apparently" ... "profits" (from)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
(...)
What does the word relentless change here, I beg you? Does this word somehow overstate the help from the Russian air force, making "massive" even more "uber-massive"? Does this word deny the fact of American airstrikes which were mentioned in other articles? Pray tell me, what kind of context or meaning is altered by this?
It wasn't in the original text, but added by Konzev.

The issue under discussion here is not what was changed by adding a word, but why was an adjective added at all, and another one changed to pertain to a different noun.

His most recent post offers some insight in the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
Has there been any coverage of the fact that "moderates" backed by various "free" countries of the world, employed gas - chlorine most probably - to attack the Kurdish part of Aleppo?

I would say again, because this time as well as the last one, there are videos of the attack.
It was mentioned somewhere in the back pages, obviously overshadowed by events here.

I'll see if I can edit in a link.

Edit:

Somewhat confused here, all articles date back to the summer of 2015, they reference the city Hasaka, IS using chlorine gas against Kurdish militia, Kurds finding gasmasks on IS corpses.

Wasn't there a more recent incident ?

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/33982/Islam...in-Syrie.dhtml

That's when I search in Dutch.

If I search in English I get the same hits you probably get,

Assad did most of it:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...united-nations

Western backed terrorists did it all:

http://www.pravdareport.com/news/hot...cal_weapons-0/
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