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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

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Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

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  #31  
Old 10 Jun 16, 18:09
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Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
How many American rebel forces were tortured or killed by the British before their illegal rebellion? They had to pack their ****, shut up, pay the king his due and be his good bitches. Then all would've been fine and so many people wouldn't have been killed. Stupid, stupid Americans who rebelled against the British! They even allowed the French to help them on the British Royal Sovereign soil, which is an even greater treason!
Are you really going to try and equate 1775 to 2016? If so, it displays how backwards your thinking still is!
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  #32  
Old 10 Jun 16, 19:58
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Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
There's a difference in timeline regarding killing that makes Russia different from the US in that. Russia makes things up — then responds to its own inventions.

That Russian state controlled media for propaganda purposes inverts timelines and denies things doesn't change that.

Syrian rebels only got support when Assad had decided negotiating any kind of transition wasn't going to happen, since he found it easier to just kill the protesters. Russia might CLAIM something like that would have happened in Ukraine — but remains no more than an unsubstantiated, and given Russian actions unsubstantiable — as highly improbable, as it is self-serving — claim.
How unintelligent or naive does one have to be to believe in the "spontaneous Arab Spring of 2011" in the year 2016, after wikileaks and all the events that occured?

Do you have any idea how delusional and detached from reality do you sound?

What, peaceful protesters were fired upon with absolutely no reason and suddenly a well armed and capable fighting force of several tens of thousands fighters materialised over night, that was capable going toe-to-toe with an ACTUAL national army?

The preparations were in place since at least 2006. But the foundations are there for a long time, Muslim Brotherhood and similar groups, Gulf terrorist exporters etc. work in the dark created by buying the Western media.
  #33  
Old 10 Jun 16, 20:15
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Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
You can be a Russian blood and live in another country. My wife was born in Canada from Italian immigrants. Is she Canadian or Italian? The answer is 'Who the f#&k cares?' She can be both if she desires. She can enjoy her two cultures, without insisting on stomping on another person's rights.

I don't give a flying F#&K if a 'Russian' lives in Ukraine or not. It DOES NOT give the 'country of Russia' the right to cross internationally recognized borders and seize land, resources and commit murder.

Now, let me address Syria. When a country is committing crimes against humanity, other nations have a moral obligation to defend unarmed, untrained and innocent children, women and the elderly. Are you going to try and float the biggest turd down the river that Ukraine was on level ground with Syria? Because if you are, I will call BULL$HIT every single day!! I traveled that entire region before your egomaniac president decided to ever invade the country. It was peaceful. The people were not being barrel-bombed! Schools and hospitals were not being destroyed by soldiers! The whole damn world knows that was NOT happening. So if you want to keep looking like an idiot, continue trying to make us believe the BS that such crimes were happening.
But the Russians haven't destroyed a single school, besieged a single settlement or bombarded a single town or city. Western funded and supported Kiev regime army has monopoly on those actions. I wonder what is the ratio of killed citizens, between "invading" indigenous defenders, and "patriotic" western and central UkrOpian regulars and paramilitaries.

I mean, I could have gone for every one of your recent ignorant comments, but this one caught my eye.

What would you say if I told you that things run differently in Europe compared to New World melting pots, especially in post-Socialist states?

How many videos of "warm" reception by local civilians have you watched?

How many books on Eastern European history have you read? On the area of Ukraine in particular? Can I make an educated guess?

The worst of it all is the fact you obviously support an undemocratic, illegal government that enjoys less support than the toppled one (what a twist to favourite Western narrative of toppling unpopular governments being a positive thing), which kills opposition, bans parties, censors media, abolished the separation of power, issues death lists and worships some of the worst scum imaginable. That government unconstituionally used armed forces and paramilitaries, and their forces were caught on film commiting war crimes.

The mental gymnastics you come up with don't surprise me. "It was the Russians". "Russians go home". "Glorious Maidan".
And speaking of Maidan, where did that UkrOp patriotic investigation into "police killings" go? For some reason it stalled. I wonder why, given the absolute conviction with which the Western media wrote about "Yanukovych Berkut killing protestors and police en masse".

There should be a pre-requisite reading and watching list for participation in these topics, really.
  #34  
Old 10 Jun 16, 20:18
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Originally Posted by Prospekt Mira View Post
Even the butcher strelkov, a russian citizen, boasts that nothing much would have happened if his band of bloody brothers had not crossed the border to incite violence

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ne/511584.html
So, Strelkov is an absolutely trustworthy source whose words can be fully trusted?
Good.
Am I supposed to quote him on some other issues and then ask for your corroboration?
  #35  
Old 10 Jun 16, 23:41
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Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
But the Russians haven't destroyed a single school, besieged a single settlement or bombarded a single town or city. Western funded and supported Kiev regime army has monopoly on those actions. I wonder what is the ratio of killed citizens, between "invading" indigenous defenders, and "patriotic" western and central UkrOpian regulars and paramilitaries.

I mean, I could have gone for every one of your recent ignorant comments, but this one caught my eye.

What would you say if I told you that things run differently in Europe compared to New World melting pots, especially in post-Socialist states?

How many videos of "warm" reception by local civilians have you watched?

How many books on Eastern European history have you read? On the area of Ukraine in particular? Can I make an educated guess?

The worst of it all is the fact you obviously support an undemocratic, illegal government that enjoys less support than the toppled one (what a twist to favourite Western narrative of toppling unpopular governments being a positive thing), which kills opposition, bans parties, censors media, abolished the separation of power, issues death lists and worships some of the worst scum imaginable. That government unconstituionally used armed forces and paramilitaries, and their forces were caught on film commiting war crimes.

The mental gymnastics you come up with don't surprise me. "It was the Russians". "Russians go home". "Glorious Maidan".
And speaking of Maidan, where did that UkrOp patriotic investigation into "police killings" go? For some reason it stalled. I wonder why, given the absolute conviction with which the Western media wrote about "Yanukovych Berkut killing protestors and police en masse".

There should be a pre-requisite reading and watching list for participation in these topics, really.
Give your head a long soak! Russia has a fine history of mass murder and oppression. The conflict originated in March 2014 when unmarked Russian soldiers seized the Crimean peninsula in Ukraine, an invasion that followed Ukraine's ousting of a pro-Moscow leader. Despite denials from Russian President Vladimir Putin at the time that the troops belonged to Russia, he later admitted that he deployed them. So started the fun!
You should turn the lights on before jumping into bed and see the fool you are sleeping with! Putin is no prince! If you want to defend him, knock yourself out. ... [EDIT]

Last portion of post containing personal insult has been removed.
Please refrain from name-calling. Thank you.
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Last edited by panther3485; 12 Jun 16 at 12:13..
  #36  
Old 11 Jun 16, 02:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
How unintelligent or naive does one have to be to believe in the "spontaneous Arab Spring of 2011" in the year 2016, after wikileaks and all the events that occured?

Do you have any idea how delusional and detached from reality do you sound?

What, peaceful protesters were fired upon with absolutely no reason and suddenly a well armed and capable fighting force of several tens of thousands fighters materialised over night, that was capable going toe-to-toe with an ACTUAL national army?

The preparations were in place since at least 2006. But the foundations are there for a long time, Muslim Brotherhood and similar groups, Gulf terrorist exporters etc. work in the dark created by buying the Western media.
Tin foil.

And debating the poster.

At best you could head over to the Mid East section and start a thread trying to debate how what you assume might actually have been accomplished.

You do that.
  #37  
Old 11 Jun 16, 03:43
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Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
Are you really going to try and equate 1775 to 2016? If so, it displays how backwards your thinking still is!
Lol, of course, your goose is sooo different from our gander!
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  #38  
Old 11 Jun 16, 03:46
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Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
You can be a Russian blood and live in another country. My wife was born in Canada from Italian immigrants. Is she Canadian or Italian? The answer is 'Who the f#&k cares?' She can be both if she desires. She can enjoy her two cultures, without insisting on stomping on another person's rights.
Could you please travel back in time and explain the Maidan swine and their supporters that endorsing radical ultranationalist demonstrations insisting on stomping on another person's rights, voting for laws meant to stomp on another person's rights, forming heavily armed military units made up of people insisting on stomping on another person's rights and allowing people insisting on stomping on another person's rights become high-ranking members of the government, police and the parliament is not a good idea and might provoke an adverse reaction?
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  #39  
Old 11 Jun 16, 04:02
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Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
I don't give a flying F#&K if a 'Russian' lives in Ukraine or not.
Again, "Russians" you talk about are Ukrainian citizens living in Ukraine. You say essentially that they are second-rate people who have no political rights and who must get away from their homes. Right?
Quote:
When a country is committing crimes against humanity, other nations have a moral obligation to defend unarmed, untrained and innocent children, women and the elderly.
Oh, well. I believe, the Ukrainian government committed crimes against humanity, covered in this very topic, or by shelling and bombing towns with "children, women, and the elderly". You can find enough 18+ photos of mutilated bodies on the Internet. So we return to my original point. Support of rebels in Ukraine is no different from support of rebels in Yugoslavia, Libya and Syria.
  #40  
Old 11 Jun 16, 05:31
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Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
Give your head a long soak! Russia has a fine history of mass murder and oppression.
So does every single powerful state. And some are outright built on genocide and exploitation. But that is history, right, no point in bringing it up, right?

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Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
The conflict originated in March 2014 when unmarked Russian soldiers seized the Crimean peninsula in Ukraine, an invasion that followed Ukraine's ousting of a pro-Moscow leader.
If this weren't so funny, it would be sad. First of all, you missed the Autumn 2013 western Ukrainian riots, capture and looting of government buildings and armories all over those regions. Then you missed the December 2013, January, February 2014 Western officials holding speeches and encouraging violent protestors. More importantly, you missed the Western warnings and threats issued to Yanukovych. But the most important thing of all of this, you somehow omitted the fact of dozens of dead policemen at the hands of protestors (some things have already surfaced - hotel Ukraina sniper link), the signed agreement on early elections that was supposedly guaranteed by EU, France, Germany etc. only to be broken the very next day by a coup. Oh, and Yanukovych was not a pro-Moscow leader, his election win was based on a campaign centred on EU integration. Next we have all those atrocities in Kharkov, Mariupol and Odessa. Just to paint the picture for you, the "Russian aggresion" in Crimea resulted in 2 dead, 1 on each side; while "Ukrainian anti-terrorist operation" resulted in 6000+ dead civilians. I have no intention in going through the legal side of Crimean affair, since you obviously have no idea what you are writing about, and derive your "opinion" from the writings of mass media. Would you mind explaining your support for unconstitutional use of armed and paramilitary forces against citizens of the very same country, and the countless atrocities commited in the name of "one nation, one people, one language"?

What's the matter? Violent takeover and usurpation of power is OK, and everyone should accept it and bow down? Unbelievable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
Despite denials from Russian President Vladimir Putin at the time that the troops belonged to Russia, he later admitted that he deployed them. So started the fun!
You should turn the lights on before jumping into bed and see the fool you are sleeping with! Putin is no prince! If you want to defend him, knock yourself out. Like I told the other twit, the rest of the world is watching. If you want to drink that commie Kool-Aid, good for you. I didn't see any of what you are saying happened when we right there in 2013, nor in 2008.
Ukraine is an artificial political nation, manufactured by Bolsheviks. History 101. The rest of the world was watching some other things, as well, that you so diligently leave out and try to ignore. But by "the rest of the World" you just meant NATO, didn't you? What is with this ridiculous focus on Putin? Putin didn't oppose and fight the usurpers, and Putin is not a dictator, but a democratically elected official. The Russian people have had it rough in the last 100 years, and decided to push back hard.
And what about 2008? Under which rock have you been living? EU investigation found out and published on Georgian aggresion. I wasn't on this forum in 2013, but have foreseen the clash in the aftermath of "glorious" Orange government.

Last edited by Epigon; 11 Jun 16 at 05:52..
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  #41  
Old 11 Jun 16, 05:46
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Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Tin foil.

And debating the poster.
Riiiiight. So all those Wikileaks cables don't count?

And what am I supposed to do? You write as if you were an eyewitness, with deep conviction and authority, yet somehow lack the backbone to discuss and present your evidence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
At best you could head over to the Mid East section and start a thread trying to debate how what you assume might actually have been accomplished.

You do that.
At best, we wouldn't be having this conversation due to your constant politically coloured narrative that has no connection to reality.
  #42  
Old 11 Jun 16, 07:42
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Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Again, "Russians" you talk about are Ukrainian citizens living in Ukraine. You say essentially that they are second-rate people who have no political rights and who must get away from their homes. Right?

Oh, well. I believe, the Ukrainian government committed crimes against humanity, covered in this very topic, or by shelling and bombing towns with "children, women, and the elderly". You can find enough 18+ photos of mutilated bodies on the Internet. So we return to my original point. Support of rebels in Ukraine is no different from support of rebels in Yugoslavia, Libya and Syria.
Respect the country's border and take the argument to the international community. Let a neutral party look to see where, who, when, etc. committed crimes against humanity. This whole mess is about grabbing land.sovereignty over the peninsula remains disputed as Ukraine and the majority of the international community consider the annexation as being illegal. That is why a large range of international sanctions were put in place and remain in place against Russia and a number of named individuals as a result of the events of 2014.
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  #43  
Old 11 Jun 16, 12:14
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Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
Ukraine is an artificial political nation, manufactured by Bolsheviks. History 101.
It isn't now.

And follow that thread of thought, and NO nation has any right to exist. They're all invented at some point. That's not the issue. The issue is what's actually there NOW.

Of course, for political resons Moscow may continue to deny Ukraine sufficient existance. That's largely why there's a fight in the Donbas. Otoh Russia isn't actually winning, which would be very incongrous if Ukraine was as unexistant as all that... In the end, the Russians will have to work out how to live with the existance of the Ukranians anyway.

As for the political uphevals in either Ukraine, "Arab Spring" or whatever, it needs to be realised that political regimes built on repression are inherently unstable. It works as long as the popular fear of the regime is greater than their upset with it. When that changes, when people effectively stop being afraid, they can all unravel stunningly quickly — because it's the fear that keeps people in check. Once they act collectively without fear, these regimes are deep in the cacky. (Of course, military grade violence and repression CAN be a way of restoring such fear.)

The really funny thing is how supporters of Putin's brand of politics for Russia deny this problem, when at the same time Putin acts in ways giving every evidence his circle understands quite well what the inherent dangers are.
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And what about 2008? Under which rock have you been living? EU investigation found out and published on Georgian aggresion.
And as a consequence in 2009 the EU was fine with mending fences with Russia.

The Crimean situation is principally fundamentally different. There Russia has unilaterally invaded and annexed part of a soverign neighbouring country.

Which is why even Germany (oteherwise unusually friendly with Putin's Russia for a long time) in its last revision of its foreign policy doctrine has named Russia one of its main foreign policy security concerns. Because Russia in the Crimea has overturned the principles of international politics that have been accepted and adhered to since the end of WWII.

All Russia seems to be offering so far by way of trying to get out of its impass, is that it continues to deny the obvious. Alternatively the weird instance that some countries simply should not count.

Of course, Russia is free to argue that SOME OTHER principles should apply. So far it officially doesn't do that either.
  #44  
Old 11 Jun 16, 17:47
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First of all, quoting isolated sentences without the context is disingenous. The Bolshevik remark was to counter the stupid "Commie" nonsense.

But you see, it isn't. It failed all its tests, and it continues to fail them. The political meltdown and the ensuing civil war, poverty and repression prove it.

Lets start with the fact of ethnicity of a large proportion of volunteers, over the fact of the language that dominates the government meetings, through the language which dominates in everyday use.
More importantly, the clique now in control is truly an unholy alliance.

Comprising everything from Neo-nazis, over Bandera fans, to "moderate" "nationalists" of Ukrainian nation (Praviy Sektor, various populists) who are naturally completely socialist due to the nature of Ukrainian nation, all the way to Western puppets who have to promote privatisation, sell off, LGBTABC and other "progressiveness", and the old guard of various power brokers and oligarchs. I won't go into details on the trule colours and string-pullers behind the extremists and radicals, since that is not the subject. Bottom line is, while one group worships Ukraine as "the Actual, Real, Kievan, Best Russia not those Tataro-Finno-Ugric Moscal usurpers", the other celebrates Banderism and everything that comes with it, while the third completely builds on the Soviet/Bolshevik version of Ukrainianship.


Lets see how far can they run the country down. I suspect people will vote with their feet if they haven't started already. I wonder how many people truly live and work in Ukraine at the moment. And how is that European prosperity, free work and travel regime and other goodies and cookies promised to them working out.


"Unilateral invasions"? What does that even mean? Are there perhaps bilateral invasions? And since you are so full on the law and order, why do you fail to acknowledge the popular will of Crimean residents? While supporting a coup and the following government which at the moment have minority support?

And "sovereign neighbours" in the context of Ukraine? You would call Ukraine a sovereign nation? A country whose government was blackmailed, threatened to and ordered how to deal with internal and international affairs? Takes orders from the outside? Offered assurances and guarantees that were not honoured the very next day? Had foreign officials parade and take pictures with leaders of violent and deadly riots?

Finally, is Crimean episode the point at which the principles of international politics have been overturned?

Really? Like, really? No other case or event comes to your mind when international laws, sovereignity of nations and people has been violated; and all which you write of was washed down the drain?

Again, you are either badly misinformed and honest, or well informed but disingenous.

Last edited by Epigon; 11 Jun 16 at 18:01..
  #45  
Old 12 Jun 16, 15:32
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von Junzt von Junzt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
Again, you are either badly misinformed and honest, or well informed but disingenous.
Or he is just plain down evil.

Honestly, any decent person with sound judgement will realize that Ukraine is in a civil war, and is the Ukrainian side who started it and who is commiting war crimes by bombing cities, blockading Donbass and arresting, torturing and murdering dissidents.

It's just sad that there are so many people blinded by hate and brainwashed by propaganda that believe Russians, inside and out of Russia, are not human beings and can be killed with impunity.

The Russians are the new Jews.

Just report him as a troll and don't bother replying to him.
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