HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

Notices and Announcements

Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16 Mar 16, 04:18
von Junzt's Avatar
von Junzt von Junzt is offline
Brigadier General
Spain
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Him Who Is Not to be Named
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lost in time and space
Posts: 2,009
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
Torture of prisoners by Ukranian forces

I am really curious about where are our apostles of democracy and international law from up north and across the pond, they don't seem to have anything to say given the deafening silence on my other thread


http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/03/the...n-cruelty.html

The TV channel "Zvezda" has published excerpts from the report "War crimes of the Ukrainian Security & Armed Forces: torture and inhumane treatment," prepared by a non-governmental organization "Foundation for the Study of Democracy" and the "Russian Public Council for International Cooperation and Public Diplomacy", with the support of the "Russian Peace Foundation". The "Foundation for the study of democracy" is chaired by a member of the Public chamber of the Russian Federation - Maksim Grigoriev.

The experts recorded the testimonies of those who were transferred to the Ukrainian side during the exchange of prisoners. The report used the results of a survey of more than 200 prisoners released by the Ukrainian side. The survey was conducted by the experts of the Foundation during the period from 25th August 2014 to 20th January 2015.


http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/03/the...n-cruelty.html
__________________
CANNON, n.
An instrument employed in the rectification of national boundaries.

The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

http://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra.tumblr.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra-mar.tumblr.com/
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 16 Mar 16, 05:10
joea's Avatar
joea joea is offline
General of the Forums
Canada
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ex-pat Canuck in Geneva
Posts: 6,921
joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100]
joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100] joea is a pillar of the community [1100]
Well, for my part, I am not surprised as Ukraine has been basically ruled by gangsters since independence and the current "pro West" bunch seem to be the worst. Incompetent as they are brutal.
  #3  
Old 16 Mar 16, 06:24
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,151
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by joea View Post
Well, for my part, I am not surprised as Ukraine has been basically ruled by gangsters since independence and the current "pro West" bunch seem to be the worst. Incompetent as they are brutal.
An the have a long history living under Stalin and Stalin like thinking.
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

'half-baked, spurious nationalism'
  #4  
Old 16 Mar 16, 06:25
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,389
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
The TV channel "Zvezda" has published excerpts from the report "War crimes of the Ukrainian Security & Armed Forces: torture and inhumane treatment," prepared by a non-governmental organization "Foundation for the Study of Democracy" and the "Russian Public Council for International Cooperation and Public Diplomacy", with the support of the "Russian Peace Foundation". The "Foundation for the study of democracy" is chaired by a member of the Public chamber of the Russian Federation - Maksim Grigoriev.
If it had came from some well known respected NGO like Amnesty International or MSF then it would be a bit different matter than it coming from an 'NGO' that is chaired by a member of the Russian government (or extension of it). In similar manner 'Russian Peace Foundation' appears to be chaired by a member of the Russian Parliament (apparently one of the persons currently facing sanctions)...

So let's just say that if an actual NGO would make such a report then it might have some credibility. Now, given that it has been produced by what essentially appear to be nothing but extensions of Russian state, not so much.

As to the contents - it is not in any way surprising. Violence and cruelty has already been shown by the both sides of that conflict.
  #5  
Old 16 Mar 16, 08:17
von Junzt's Avatar
von Junzt von Junzt is offline
Brigadier General
Spain
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Him Who Is Not to be Named
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lost in time and space
Posts: 2,009
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
As to the contents - it is not in any way surprising. Violence and cruelty has already been shown by the both sides of that conflict.

This is why I have you and others in the ignore list and why I should not reply at all to you and your ilk because any answer is going to break forum rules and several laws.


Let's face it. It is for now abundandly proven that you, among others, have been brainwashed into hating Russia and Russians and can't rise above it. You are on the same level as a Nazi from West Ukranian. You will never ever condemn Ukranian attrocities because for you they do not exist, they are Russian propaganda, and the Russians are subhumans so they deserve it.

That's how you come across. You, your Swedish cousin, and an awful lot of people brainwashed by Western mass media of manipulation. If it is not in the TV it does not happen.

But with the internet the evidence is there, if you look for it. I don't even know Russian, but all the videos and testimony are there. Given the circumstances, it is reasonably to assume the worst regarding what happens in Ukraine. Last time a government resigned the monopoly and violence and handed weapons to fanatical extremist militias the outcome was not good. We should be thankful that Ukraine has not become Spain in 1936, but people keep disappearing in Ukraine and when the regime falls and the truth comes out it's going to be as bad as the Argentina junta. And this is not speculation, it is founded fears based on what little has been actually shown.

In Odessa they burned people alive while the cameras are rolling.
It does not take a genius to figure that people sick with such fanatical hate are not going to abide by the Convention of Geneva.

By the way, the Red Cross recognized the novorussians rebels as legitimate combatantas. I am still waiting for any Red Cross inspection of Ukranian prisions or any report on the conditions of prisoners. In this war, even supposedly neutral humanitarian institutions as the Red Cross have failed miserably. They never showed up in Donbass. People would have starved if it weren't for Russian aid convoys. Aid that the Western powers rabidly opposed in spite of Russia making everything possible for international supervision of these convoys.

As for other evidence, there are plenty of videos of shelling of city centers, far from any military target, deliberate war crimes and admitted even by a _Ukranian general on Ukranian TV, and the carnages they caused. Back in the 1990s there were plenty of TV cameras filming what the Serbians were doing to the people of Sarajevo and other places. Why these videos of the slaughter perpetrated by Ukranian bombardments are not shown on Western TV?

Why there is never mention of Donbass people casualties and suffering?

Because people like you don't care, it's only Russians, they are not even human to you.

But when you can't hide anymore the essential evil of the Ukranian nazis, the regime and the people that support them, you make excuses saying the Russians are as bad and both sides are evil.


Not at all. You can't place in the same level murderers and victims. I wonder how that loathsome obnoxious Jew from the USA would react if I said the Nazis and the Jews are the same.


No both sides are not equal. It is West Ukranian troops that are invading a Russian land. They are fighting in foreign soil for all practical purposes, against a foreign people. People in Galitzia and those from Donbass have nothing in common. The westernmost part of Ukraine was never part of Russian lands into 1945. They are invaders and behaving as such. The people in Donbass always wonder, why these horrible Ukranians couldn't just declare independence and go away to pursue their pipe dream about joining "Europe"? They are not even Russian, we want nothing to do with them. Why they came to our lands to kill us?


That's the problem with Ukranian nationalism. They don't want just to break ties with Russia and become independent from Russia. They want all the land of Ukraine, even that wich was never theirs, like Donbass and Crimea. They want the land but without the people, because Ukranian nationalism is defined as the anti Russia.

On the other hand, there is no hate from Russians towards Ukranians, as except those half-Polish mongrels from the west, Ukranian and Russian are the same people.


This is not like Yugoslavia were there was ethnic hatred and scores to settle on every side. All the hate and the attrocities are one-sided. The Donbass rebels are not killing Ukranians because they speak Ukranian or are bombing West Ukranian cities and massacring Ukranian women and children.

All the civilians killed in this war are from Donbass. Ten thousand.

Ukranian dead are soldiers and combatants.

The Novorussian side may not be pure and completely innocent. Nobody is in war. But after all the attrocities perpetrated by Ukranian troops, who don't observe the laws of Ukraine, the Geneva convention nor show the simplest basic humanity, they are morally legitimized to retaliate. Eye for eye and tooth for a tooth. Legally they are justified to execute prisoners from the Ukranian paramilitary nazi militias, as they are not legitimate armed combatants.

Civilians aside, the treatment of the Ukranian prisoners of war has been incomparably better on the Novorussian side. Ukranian conscritps caught prisoners during the uprising were allowed to return home with their famiies. Prisoners caught in the pockets were returned and generally well treated, being fed and received medical care. Even prisoners from nazi militias like those from 'Donbass' batallion caught at Ilovaysk were released, when the novorussians would have been perfectly justified in executing them.


There's no way to spin this. The Ukranian junta is an evil and criminal regime, and their troops are war criminals. And those are facts and there is plenty of proof of this. Is not just because the Russians say it. If you don't want to see it it is your problem. I will turn your argument around. It's Western media and governemts that cannot be trusted because they are hiding the truth and lying.

The Ukranian regime is evil and criminal, Ukranian soldiers are evil and criminal, the Ukranian populace that supports them are evil and criminal.

You might not agree with Russian policies or even dislike Russian people, but there is drawn a line. If you do not condemn the Ukranian attrocities, if you do not demand to put an stop to the war, if you do not criticize the European governments that are funding the Kiev junta so they can carry out this war, you are accomplice by omission. You will not be able to pretend like the Germans after the war, that they did not knew what the Nazis were doing.

If you are not against Ukraine regime and the crimes commited by the Ukranian people, you are as evil and criminal as they are.

If so, then you cannot lecture others on morality, justice, law, human rights, or what is good or evil.

It is a simple choice.
__________________
CANNON, n.
An instrument employed in the rectification of national boundaries.

The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

http://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra.tumblr.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra-mar.tumblr.com/

Last edited by von Junzt; 16 Mar 16 at 08:24..
  #6  
Old 16 Mar 16, 08:29
Snowygerry's Avatar
Snowygerry Snowygerry is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gent
Posts: 11,274
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...orture-prisons

Someone please explain the difference.
__________________
High The Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

Captain Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.
  #7  
Old 16 Mar 16, 09:30
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,389
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
I said they were similar because: (1) exactly similar report describing torture of Ukrainians (both military personnel as well as civilians) by the rebels (or Russians) was released couple of months back http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...nian-prisoners by NGOs as well; and (2) Amnesty already reported gross violations on both sides about a year ago. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-Amnesty.html.

Is the torture by one side better than the torture by the other? Or are both to be blamed (like i initially said)?
  #8  
Old 16 Mar 16, 09:41
Snowygerry's Avatar
Snowygerry Snowygerry is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gent
Posts: 11,274
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Well yes, that explains the similarities - how about the differences ?
__________________
High The Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

Captain Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.
  #9  
Old 16 Mar 16, 10:03
Epigon's Avatar
Epigon Epigon is offline
Major
Croatia
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Zagreb
Posts: 912
Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
If it had came from some well known respected NGO like Amnesty International....

So let's just say that if an actual NGO would make such a report then it might have some credibility.

Pure comedy gold.

I guess reports, photos and videos of torture, results and victim exhumation come second to respected NGOs.

Carry on.
  #10  
Old 16 Mar 16, 15:02
Johan Banér's Avatar
Johan Banér Johan Banér is online now
General of the Forums
Sweden
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Uppsala
Posts: 6,215
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
Pure comedy gold.

I guess reports, photos and videos of torture, results and victim exhumation come second to respected NGOs.

Carry on.
Depends on whether the sender of these messages actually is in the trust-businesses, or if it's instead the disinformation-buisness. Since the latter is parasitic on the former.
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 17 Mar 16, 01:09
ThoseDeafMutes's Avatar
ThoseDeafMutes ThoseDeafMutes is offline
First Lieutenant
Australia
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Hobart
Posts: 643
ThoseDeafMutes is on the path to success [1-99] ThoseDeafMutes is on the path to success [1-99] ThoseDeafMutes is on the path to success [1-99] ThoseDeafMutes is on the path to success [1-99] ThoseDeafMutes is on the path to success [1-99] ThoseDeafMutes is on the path to success [1-99] ThoseDeafMutes is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...orture-prisons

Someone please explain the difference.
What's especially mystifying is the point OP is trying to make. If we are to accept that this happened as described at face value and that the Ukrainian army is engaged in war crimes, is it supposed to then follow that this retroactively justifies Russia invading Crimea and initiating a bloody civil war in the Donbass?

But please for the love of god can we get some reports from serious websites. "Ukraine = Nazi" smears have been coming out of Russia since day 0 of this conflict. The headline of this article is "UAF surpasses Gestapo in cruelty". Wow, that's a bold claim. Every article on the side bar is about how cool Russia is or how bad America / Ukraine is. The truth is that every actor here is knee deep in blood and faeces. Nobody is coming out clean on the other side. The AI report indicated exactly this, that daily war crimes were being committed by government and rebel forces.
  #12  
Old 17 Mar 16, 02:39
Johan Banér's Avatar
Johan Banér Johan Banér is online now
General of the Forums
Sweden
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Uppsala
Posts: 6,215
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
To the extent this, also (after all), IS a civil war, the atrocities are kind of expected.

They're a nasty feature of those. The acts of violence and torture by you own side tends to be rationalised in terms of how the enemy deserved it — and the proof of how they deserved the especially brutal treatmen, is the treatment itself... Nasty piece of circular logic that tends to crop up in these kinds of situations (Yugoslavia in the 90's, Finland in 1918, anyplace really.)

Since "our" side is the Guys In White Hats, and IF "we" do something as horrible as that, then that evidence in itself that the other guys are just that BAD, and so they deserved it... otherwise "we" never would have, so "they" practially made us torture and kill them... Etc., etc.

Next thing to watch for is torture of Ukranian prisoncers by the rebels, justifying it on the basis of these Russian reports of massive amounts of torture by Ukranian government forces. And sice they just KNOW the Ukranians are "worse than Gestapo", as said — well what WOULD you do to blood-soaked Gestapo operatives if you captured them? And things will be improvised from there...

Which is why "gruel propaganda" tends to be disliked by professional militaries, just like they tend to try to check actual abuse of prisoners. It potentially makes conflicts THAT much nastier to fight, as if they needed that. For propaganda reasons on civilian home-front (and armchair-warriors) it all has a different use of course.
  #13  
Old 17 Mar 16, 02:40
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 24,907
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoseDeafMutes View Post
What's especially mystifying is the point OP is trying to make. If we are to accept that this happened as described at face value and that the Ukrainian army is engaged in war crimes, is it supposed to then follow that this retroactively justifies Russia invading Crimea and initiating a bloody civil war in the Donbass?

But please for the love of god can we get some reports from serious websites. "Ukraine = Nazi" smears have been coming out of Russia since day 0 of this conflict. The headline of this article is "UAF surpasses Gestapo in cruelty". Wow, that's a bold claim. Every article on the side bar is about how cool Russia is or how bad America / Ukraine is. The truth is that every actor here is knee deep in blood and faeces. Nobody is coming out clean on the other side. The AI report indicated exactly this, that daily war crimes were being committed by government and rebel forces.
When someone is shouting that everyone else is a brainwashed Nazi unless they agree with them, you're not going to get rational arguments made based around clear objective facts. The irony is, as always, just incredible.
__________________
"In Iraq, the U.S. intervened and occupied, and the result was a costly disaster. In Libya, the U.S. intervened and did not occupy, and the result was a costly disaster. In Syria, the U.S. neither intervened nor occupied, and the result is a costly disaster."
-- Philip Gordon, 2015
  #14  
Old 17 Mar 16, 03:54
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,389
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
When someone is shouting that everyone else is a brainwashed Nazi unless they agree with them, you're not going to get rational arguments made based around clear objective facts. The irony is, as always, just incredible.
What i found hilarious is that by not automatically fully agreeing with the premise of the OP you are immediately branded as a Nazi, 'evil criminal' and probably as some other equally unsavory things judging from that TLDR outburst.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
To the extent this, also (after all), IS a civil war, the atrocities are kind of expected.
Yep, the civil wars are always especially nasty in that respect.
Quote:
Next thing to watch for is torture of Ukranian prisoncers by the rebels, justifying it on the basis of these Russian reports of massive amounts of torture by Ukranian government forces.
Actually it seems to be the vice versa - not that it matters which side started it though - as the respective Ukrainian report describing the torture of the Ukrainian prisoners by the rebels seems to have came out late last year.
  #15  
Old 26 May 16, 03:14
von Junzt's Avatar
von Junzt von Junzt is offline
Brigadier General
Spain
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Him Who Is Not to be Named
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lost in time and space
Posts: 2,009
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
Surprise, surprise, if they have nothing to hide, why prevent access?

__________________
CANNON, n.
An instrument employed in the rectification of national boundaries.

The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

http://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra.tumblr.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra-mar.tumblr.com/
Closed Thread

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:42.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.