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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Spanish Civil War

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Spanish Civil War This forum is for discussion of the Spanish Civil War. , this sub-forum appears in the World War II section because Spain was both a training ground for and preview of what was about to break loose in Europe.

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  #31  
Old 09 Sep 16, 22:51
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Dear Arnold Rimmer-''murdering raping scum who opposed Franco ''-what rubbish!-George Orwell ;Ernest Hemingway -The Countess of Atholl -a pre war British Conservative Cabinet Minister; Edward Heath future Conservative British Prime Minster (1970-74)-all of whom supported the glorious Spanish republic in its war against Fascist Franco -'murdering , raping scum ?!!!!-stop havering Rimmer!!-your statement is emotive non historically factual junk.
Also, those who claim that ex- International brigade vets were ''blocked for security reasons in 1939 ''-that isn't true either.
At least not in Britain.
How come ?-the guy appointed to teach the newly founded Local Defence Force aka ''The Home Guard'' was a Communist veteran of the Spanish civil war whose knowledge of guerilla warfare hich hehad utiised in pain against Franco and his Fascist gangsters was consdered ivaluable in 1940.
However, it is true that after a year or so when it emerged that he was a Communist veteran of the Spanish civil war the British govt replaced him .
The Duchess of Atholl was the first ever Conservative govt Cabinet Minister in the 1930's and she and Socialist icon Red Ellen Wilkinson went to Spain to the front on a fact finding mission and to show their support for the legitimate Popular Front govt against Franco whose forces did the vast bulk of the'murdering and raping''between 1936-39.
Instead of peddling your ludicrous prejudices MR Rimmer try reading George Orwell 's book ''HOMAGE TO CATALONIA'''' which makes a complete ass of your grotesque ''murdering /raping ''fantasies.
True, Orwell highlights how the Stalinists (control freaks like the bloody tyrant who gave them their name ) went about Barcelona murdering Anarchists when the Franco Fascists were knocking on the door of Barcelona. But Orwell also highlights how for a short time- the Anarchists and other Popular Front people introduced a an eglitarian, classless, society in Barcelona which was the antithesis of the crap imposed by totalitarians like Hitler backed Franco or the Stalinist Communists who betrayed the Popular Front govt. But not all the Communists who fought in the international Brigades were dupes of Stalin Orwell mentions Bob Smillie the Scottish Communist he met in Spain and who was kliled in action as being a very admirable man.
Fife in Scotland ,where I live, was both a coal mining and Communist stronghold electorally and many Fifers fought and died fighting there real murderers and rapists i/e. the Falangist scum who supported Franco.
Although most of Fife's international brigadists are now dead they are still revered here and commemorated annually at cermonies.
So a word of friendly advice Mr Rimmer. If you ever come to Scotland and visit Fife(the Scottish county which also produced Scots-American-19th/20th century uber capitalist, Andrew Carnegie and Adam Smith, author of the capitalist equivalent of ''Das Kapital'' ''THE WEALTH OF NATIONS'' -if you visit Fife -be very circumspect about launching diatribes against those who opposed Franco especially as it it only a couple of months ago since the last democratically elected Communist town councillor in Fife and Great Britain retired. A very popular fellow he was/is too in his native town of Cowdenbeath-although he would have been murdered in Franco's Spain
We -even non Communists like me -cherish the young Fifers -irrespective of whether they were Communsts or not because we have the native wit to know that they were the good guys between 1936-39 and Franco and his crew were scumbags.
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  #32  
Old 22 Sep 16, 19:22
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Toomtabard

I wish to commend you upon your highly dignified and righteous rant whereupon you defended the noble International Brigade soldiers who fought in the Spain Civil War. Thank You!!!!
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  #33  
Old 24 Sep 16, 13:37
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Here's more from a remarkable book SPAIN IN OUR HEARTS:

"Rieber was always happy to hire Nazi sympathizers. As a result, a Texaco representative in Germany received frequent telegrams, supposedly about patent claims, from an associate in the company's New York office. In fact, these proved to contain coded information about ships leaving New York for Britain and what their cargoes were. Other information the Nazis at Texaco transmitted or carried to Germany, some of it disguised as routine business correspondence, including detailed intelligence reports on the American petroleum and aircraft industries. Alert British agents discovered some of these goings on and tipped off the New York Herald Tribune. Westrick was expelled from the country, Texaco shamed, and Rieber forced to resign, his departure eased by a hefty pension. Texaco, alarmed by the bad publicity, moved quickly to clean up its public image. It began sponsoring the Metropolitan Opera's weekly radio broadcasts, a relationship that would last for decades."
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  #34  
Old 15 Oct 16, 15:21
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ATTENTION! ATTENTION!!!!

Noble forum readers as I type this the somewhat honorable BOOK TV in now presenting the author ADAM HOCHSCHILD and his book SPAIN IN OUR HEARTS. It is excellent material and will be replaying off and on all weekend and can be see anytime at their website archive. Am at Central Standard Time in USA.
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  #35  
Old 18 Oct 16, 07:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
It wasn't our war. You guys bungled the whole business, from the Rhineland to 'peace in our time', to getting tossed off the Continent in both France and Greece.

You forget that if you kick a man while he is down, be very careful not to let him get back onto his feet.

You were lucky we were there to fill your begging bowl until events drew us in to win both the PTO and ETO for you.
If you had made a Remark like that in an English pub in the Forties there would have been a few bloody noses and most would have been from our cousins across the 'Big Pond' lcm1
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  #36  
Old 18 Oct 16, 10:11
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Originally Posted by lcm1 View Post
If you had made a Remark like that in an English pub in the Forties there would have been a few bloody noses and most would have been from our cousins across the 'Big Pond' lcm1
I first heard it from my uncles, who served in the ETO.

Not great fans of the Brits.

But in the end, it is the simple truth:

In 1919, you could have treated the Germans softly. But you chose to be utter sh*ts about it. Then you went soft in the early 30s, and backed down again and again.

Very short-viewed. If you kick someone when they are down, the worst thing you can do is to lose sight of the fact that you did it. Because they certainly won't.
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  #37  
Old 20 Oct 16, 18:07
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From the book FORGOTTEN PLACES: BARCELONA AND THE CIVIL WAR by NICK LLOYD

"4.3 Killing of the clergy

On the eve of the war, the Spanish clergy was made up of some 115,000 members (45,000 nuns, 15,000 monks, with most of the rest, priests), representing approximately one percent of the working population of Spain. They would soon bear the brunt of the ANGER UNLEASED BY THE FAILED COUP (Franco's attempt at a knockout punch early) as Spain saw the mass slaughter of the clergy on an unprecedented scale. In all, some 6,800 members were killed in Republican Spain during the war, one of the worst waves of anticlerical violence in world history. Of these, 1300 died in Catalonia, and more than 100 in Barcelona. Unlike other victims of the popular ire, priests were on occasions even tortured. In some cases their bodies suffered post-mortem mutilations, such as the stuffing of genitals in the mouth, in itself also an act of desecration against the words of Christ, which the victim had preached.

Since 1939, the Catholic Church has beatified many of those killed, including 233 individual martyrs on 11 March 2001 alone. In contrast, the Francoist propaganda of the mass murder and rape of nuns in Republican Spain was simple put just that propaganda without much basis in fact. This was in part due to a taboo in Spanish society against the murder of women (as opposed to widespread domestic violence), but nuns were also often viewed by the Left as victims to be liberated (whether they wanted to or not), arising from the widespread belief that many young women who entered convents were forced to do so, or were tricked. Moreover, the little charity the church did give tended to be given by nuns.....Rape in a political context in Republican Spain was extremely rare (however shocking the individual cases were), unlike in the territory controlled by Franco's forces, where it was USED MASSIVELY AS A VERY DELIBERATE TACTIC OF TERROR."
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  #38  
Old 20 Oct 16, 18:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I first heard it from my uncles, who served in the ETO.

Not great fans of the Brits.

But in the end, it is the simple truth:

In 1919, you could have treated the Germans softly. But you chose to be utter sh*ts about it. Then you went soft in the early 30s, and backed down again and again.

Very short-viewed. If you kick someone when they are down, the worst thing you can do is to lose sight of the fact that you did it. Because they certainly won't.
In 1919 we could have treated the Germans a lot harder and if the French had had there way would have done so. Indeed there are those like the American writer Azimov who claim that we should not have agreed to an Armistice at all but have reduced Germany to the state it was in 1945 - indeed Congress actually passed a resolution demanding that no armistice be granted but Wilson over ruled it - so look to your own government first!

Elements in the German army were planning for the next war even before Versailles was signed
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  #39  
Old 28 Oct 16, 17:42
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Here's another peak at FORGOTTEN PLACES: BARCELONA AND THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR:

"Once the revolutionary period was over, the authorities established religious freedoms in the city, particularly after the 1937 May Days, which restored Republican State control over the streets. The Republic then tried to re-establish diplomatic relations with the Vatican and to reopen places of worship. This was in part to return worship to its normal position in a liberal democracy, but also to fight against the clandestine masses being held all over Barcelona in private apartments which were used as meeting places for fifth columnists. ROME REFUSED -- UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE FRANCOISTS AND THE SPANISH CATHOLIC CHURCH. It would be the Catholic Church which therefore DENIED MASS TO THEIR FOLLOWERS FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF OF THE WAR IN CATALONIA.

A curious case is that of the Basques who arrived in Barcelona in large numbers after the fall of the region in the autumn of 1937. Although many were fervently Catholic and openly wore crucifixes, they were welcome in the city, and a discrete chapel was opened for them in the Gothic Quarters. The Church enjoyed huge support among the nationalist community in the Basque Country, and had opposed the rising (Franco fascists) as the threat it indeed proved to be to the Basque nationalist cause. There was very little anticlerical violence in the Basque Country, and when the region fell to Franco's forces, 14 Basque priests were shot."
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  #40  
Old 19 Mar 17, 04:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Archer View Post
Here's another peak at FORGOTTEN PLACES: BARCELONA AND THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR:

"Once the revolutionary period was over, the authorities established religious freedoms in the city, particularly after the 1937 May Days, which restored Republican State control over the streets. The Republic then tried to re-establish diplomatic relations with the Vatican and to reopen places of worship. This was in part to return worship to its normal position in a liberal democracy, but also to fight against the clandestine masses being held all over Barcelona in private apartments which were used as meeting places for fifth columnists. ROME REFUSED -- UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE FRANCOISTS AND THE SPANISH CATHOLIC CHURCH. It would be the Catholic Church which therefore DENIED MASS TO THEIR FOLLOWERS FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF OF THE WAR IN CATALONIA.

A curious case is that of the Basques who arrived in Barcelona in large numbers after the fall of the region in the autumn of 1937. Although many were fervently Catholic and openly wore crucifixes, they were welcome in the city, and a discrete chapel was opened for them in the Gothic Quarters. The Church enjoyed huge support among the nationalist community in the Basque Country, and had opposed the rising (Franco fascists) as the threat it indeed proved to be to the Basque nationalist cause. There was very little anticlerical violence in the Basque Country, and when the region fell to Franco's forces, 14 Basque priests were shot."
I am late to the party.
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