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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Africa

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Africa Issues of modern Africa.

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  #16  
Old 29 Feb 16, 21:26
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I don't recall seeing any of his posts here.
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  #17  
Old 29 Feb 16, 21:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
I'm not blaming the South Aricans for a second.

But, obviously, someone has to act as a policeman on a macro-continental scale..

Rather like the Doctor on his way home from work, driving straight past an auto accident that they personally witnessed, and driving on.

Here, the bystander is made liable for the lack of duty of care.

The ones that ultimately pay, (ordinary Zimbabweans), have evn less say than we do.

When RM dies, that will be the perfect time to send in large numbers of interventionists, guaranteeing a non-recurrance of a more than inevitable civil war.
I misunderstood - that happens a lot when I'm exhausted. I feel bad for the people. Its all a little fuzzy, but I was there in '95 for a couple of weeks. The people I met were really friendly. There were stories about things happening to the missionaries, and they told us not to engage the police on the streets no matter what.

I see your point, and it sounds like you know more about South Africa's military capabilities than I do, but it seems like it should be multi-national effort or they would fail. It might fail anyway. This may be apples and oranges, but NATO was completely ineffectual in doing anything to stop the Rwandan Genocide in 1994. Just my opinion, but anything other than a strong multi-national response would be a complete failure, and it still might be a complete failure.

I'd like to be wrong. We drove from Jo'burg to Harare. I enjoyed the country and the people I met. I'd like to make it back one day, but not right now!
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  #18  
Old 01 Mar 16, 02:49
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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
I'm not blaming the South Aricans for a second.

But, obviously, someone has to act as a policeman on a macro-continental scale..

Rather like the Doctor on his way home from work, driving straight past an auto accident that they personally witnessed, and driving on.

Here, the bystander is made liable for the lack of duty of care.

The ones that ultimately pay, (ordinary Zimbabweans), have evn less say than we do.

When RM dies, that will be the perfect time to send in large numbers of interventionists, guaranteeing a non-recurrance of a more than inevitable civil war.
The problem with intervention with boots on the ground is knowing how to negotiate with all the tribal interests and historic grudges and myths, and have viable exit strategies that don't just end up stirring the pot into an even greater mess.

Remember that for most Africans western notions of national democracy are still foreign to them. Tribal ID and loyalty and number one boss man for life are concepts they still tend to adhere to. Tribes beat the crap out of each other and enslaved eachother until honkey man came on the scene and set up his own brands of domination and exploitation.
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  #19  
Old 01 Mar 16, 12:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
In your haste to be politically correct, TAG, you miss the point entirely.

I notice the African forum here is full of indifference based on the "not our peoblem" school of thought.

How bad does a "problem" have to get before any of you will sanction intervention on any level?

Do we have to start a hash tag movement "#African lives MATTER"?

This is what forum's are for, my freinds, or one of the reasons anyway. To publically expose while at the same time informing.

thank the BBC in Africa for having eyes, ears and mouthpieces everywhere, in every country, keeping the bastards honest.

And pricking our collective consciences as well.
No, I'm not missing the point. Rhodesia might well have been horribly racist. But, it also had a reasonably successful economy and was a net exporter of food. It was a stable nation.

Robert Mugabe and his minions have turned Zimbabwe into a basket case $h!+ hole. The nation is broke, people are starving, and the government is begging for handouts from other nations.

The "intervention" needed is to rid Zimbabwe of Stalinist-like Leftist government, end the attempts at wealth redistribution and getting even racially that are going on. Correcting a wrong with a dozen more wrongs is absolutely stupid but that's what's going on in Zimbabwe.

African lives do matter, and they are best helped by not having petty dictators and Socialist / Leftist governments running Africa into the ground.
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  #20  
Old 01 Mar 16, 13:46
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
N

African lives do matter, and they are best helped by not having petty dictators and Socialist / Leftist governments running Africa into the ground.
Don't get confused. Mugabe may use a leftist cloak but what he is about is enriching himself and his family - the 'party' members also. It was the same in Zambia under Kaunda when I was there and Zuma appears to be going the same way in SA
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  #21  
Old 01 Mar 16, 14:21
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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Observance of international law is EVERYBODIE's reponsibil;ity.

When its **** plain obvious that a human rights debacle is not only brewing, but has been in place for years, its time to ACT.
Again, why? We can't protect people from themselves and it isn't our responsibility. When we actually do try then everybody comes down on us for being the world police and being imperialist. Not like anybody would ever thank us for helping. Look at Iraq, Saddam was every bit as bad as Mugabe and yet we were "wrong" to remove him. Somalia is an even better example. Just look how "greatful" they were for our help. Best to leave people to the messes they make for themselves and save our blood and money.

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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
This whole idea of sitting and watching one black Arfican dictator after another do exactly what they please is WRONG.
Putting aside the fact that its nobody's responsibility but the Zimbabweans, what would you have the world do? Overthrow the government? OK now the people are fighting a insurgency against their would be liberators just like in Somalia. Then what? Who takes power after that? Who guarantees that it doesn't just slip back into civil war and anarchy in a few years anyway? You know what it would take to fix a place like that? Something almost akin to recolonization. An intense decades long process to build the country up and establish strong national institutions and an economy that could survive on its own. All controlled and financed from abroad. How well do you think that would go over?

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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
If so, why did Europe intervene in Poland, 1939?

Why didn't we sit back and say "Oh well, a few Jews more or less. Thats their internal problem."
Because Britain and France were allied with Poland as a counter to Germany. There was nothing humanitarian about it. All of those countries were existential threats to each other and they all fought and made allies for their own ends. The holocaust hadn't even really started in 1939 and nobody even really knew about it for most of the war. It wasn't until the war was all but over and they found the camps that they really understood what was happening. WWII was not about stopping the Holocaust, that was just a bonus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
If it was happening in the United states it would be an international disgrace.

But because its a black African dictatorship....
Well yes. The US is a civilized first world power and is held to a higher standard. Counties like Zimbabwe on the other hand are almost expected to be this way. It has nothing to do with them being black either. This sort of this has happened in Asia, the Middle East and South America too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Yep, lets let Zimbabwean farmers of all colors go to the wall and flee into nieghbouring countries enmasse before we even issue a "strongly worded protest."
Or maybe they could try to.change their country for the better. Overthrow Mugabe and try to create a modern democratic state. I guarantee they'd get plenty of foreign support for that. After all; whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Whats the point of having all the military buildup from a relatively rich country like South Africa if its not a force for good, or for positive change?

Its obvious SAs nieghbours are not going to launch their catapults anytime soon. So why bother having an expensive Military force at all if the only excuse you can offer for its intended use is "not our business"?
The point is to defend the people and territory of South Africa, same as any military. Zimbabwe is not their responsibility. None of this we are the world one human family stuff. SA's people pay for that military to protect their own, not to go looking for a cause that doesn't affect them. Militaries aren't charities.
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  #22  
Old 01 Mar 16, 15:10
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Again, why? .
It's rather simple - if it is international law to which our democratically elected governments signed up to then if we are not prepared to help enforce it we are hypocrites of the first degree - if we are not so prepared they should never have agreed to it in the first place. It's a mite ingenuous posing as "the arsenal of democracy" if all you want is the sales revenue.
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  #23  
Old 01 Mar 16, 15:24
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
It's rather simple - if it is international law to which our democratically elected governments signed up to then if we are not prepared to help enforce it we are hypocrites of the first degree - if we are not so prepared they should never have agreed to it in the first place. It's a mite ingenuous posing as "the arsenal of democracy" if all you want is the sales revenue.
International law requires South Africa to overthrow Mugabe and end all of Zimbabwe's problems? That's what Nero is demanding after all. What about the West? For us to do what would be needed to fix that basket case we'd basically have to recolonize the country and drag them kicking and screaming out of the hole they dug for themsleves. Nobody has the appetite for that right now and whoever tried would be called an imperialist for their efforts.

As far as international law being hypocritical it absolutely is. I won't argue that. Most of it was written after WWII to deal with that specific set of circumstances. Most of it is extremely optimisitic, naive and unrealistic in the real world. Europe is learning that right now regarding its asylum and immigration laws but the problem is far wider than just that topic. International laws are ideals not practical rules half the time.
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Old 01 Mar 16, 15:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
It's rather simple - if it is international law to which our democratically elected governments signed up to then if we are not prepared to help enforce it we are hypocrites of the first degree - if we are not so prepared they should never have agreed to it in the first place. It's a mite ingenuous posing as "the arsenal of democracy" if all you want is the sales revenue.
No where does the Constitution require us to meddle in the affairs of others. I for one would like to go isolationist. Use our taxes to guard ourselves and repair our infrastructure. That the people of Zimbabwe choose to live in despair is their choice. You could point to china, nk, somalia, ect. and say the exact same thing. Why is it our responsibility to 'free' people who don't want to do it themselves?

I've got much respect on George Washingtons farewell speech on beware of foreign entanglements.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp

Again I ask you why we should send our troops and treasure to impose our system of governance? They don't desire that or they'd seek it out themselves.

I say its time for us to mind our own business.
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  #25  
Old 01 Mar 16, 15:34
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Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
International law requires South Africa to overthrow Mugabe and end all of Zimbabwe's problems? That's what Nero is demanding after all. What about the West? For us to do what would be needed to fix that basket case we'd basically have to recolonize the country and drag them kicking and screaming out of the hole they dug for themsleves. Nobody has the appetite for that right now and whoever tried would be called an imperialist for their efforts.

As far as international law being hypocritical it absolutely is. I won't argue that. Most of it was written after WWII to deal with that specific set of circumstances. Most of it is extremely optimisitic, naive and unrealistic in the real world. Europe is learning that right now regarding its asylum and immigration laws but the problem is far wider than just that topic. International laws are ideals not practical rules half the time.
When the bleep does international law oblige a single state to enforce anything? The clue in "international law"
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  #26  
Old 01 Mar 16, 17:46
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Most of the people affected in Zimbabwe are unarmed, powerless to change anything, and unrepresented even by a simple vote.

Rigged elections disenfranchise them from even that small amount of say.

So, we all just sit back, including their nieghbours, the richest and most powerful military in Africa, we just sit back and say "Ah, there it goes again. Nothing to do with us. Those people made their beds, they can lay down on the mess..."

Except MOST people had NO say in this at all.

They are unable to change things internally, otherwise they would have.

The time to act is NOW, before the "transfer" of power. Its time to send a force of about 10,000 in, with aircraft for humanitarian airlifts.

Set up free and fair elections, stay till its done.

Disband, forcibly, the Zimbabwean army. Anyone not towing the line is obviously part of the p[roblem.

Re-issue the arms and ammunition AFTER the elections. Once the arms curfue is in place, anyone with a gun in public or in a private collection will be indicted, imprisoned, and tried by the new judical system according to International Law.

You'all make great noises about "International Law", and then UM and ARR when it comes to Global Policing. Global Law enforcement is the repsonsibility of ALL Free Nations.

I'd rather have Global Law Enforcment as an actuality than these countries simply exporting their human useless majority, and foisting their economic and social problems onto us.

Why are we the People obliged to pay for this **** on our own doorstep, yet governemnts who signed up to "Declarations of human rights", and the "Sanctitiy of Free and fair elections", the august body whose task it is, suddenly tell us it isn't?

Meanwhile our social problems get larger and more out of control because countries like Zimbabwe are let go to do as the small section that "runs" the country tell them?

South Africans are HYPOCRITS.

Africans, generally, are dim witted, semi-educated buffoons.

I have no compunction about not contributing to charities that scream at me about African children and their plight.

When Arficans can help themselves....Well, maybe they need a "helping rifle" with a "helping global policeman or two" before they can be free enough and in control enough to "help themselves".

Mark is the only one that sees the legalities clearly...and LO...hes the ONLY one of us to travel in the area with some idea of the "feel" of the place.

That SA fellow doesn't count.

Can't see the wood for the trees.

Sit on your hands then, south Africa. Gather around your "Not Our Problem" Banner, while the children and mothers of Zimbabwe go to their graves, all from the indifference of a country that wanted outside support and pats on the back for its anti-aparthied struggle so badly not so long ago.

HYPOCRITS

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Old 01 Mar 16, 18:33
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Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
Again, why? We can't protect people from themselves and it isn't our responsibility. When we actually do try then everybody comes down on us for being the world police and being imperialist. Not like anybody would ever thank us for helping. Look at Iraq, Saddam was every bit as bad as Mugabe and yet we were "wrong" to remove him. Somalia is an even better example. Just look how "greatful" they were for our help. Best to leave people to the messes they make for themselves and save our blood and money.



Putting aside the fact that its nobody's responsibility but the Zimbabweans, what would you have the world do? Overthrow the government? OK now the people are fighting a insurgency against their would be liberators just like in Somalia. Then what? Who takes power after that? Who guarantees that it doesn't just slip back into civil war and anarchy in a few years anyway? You know what it would take to fix a place like that? Something almost akin to recolonization. An intense decades long process to build the country up and establish strong national institutions and an economy that could survive on its own. All controlled and financed from abroad. How well do you think that would go over?



Because Britain and France were allied with Poland as a counter to Germany. There was nothing humanitarian about it. All of those countries were existential threats to each other and they all fought and made allies for their own ends. The holocaust hadn't even really started in 1939 and nobody even really knew about it for most of the war. It wasn't until the war was all but over and they found the camps that they really understood what was happening. WWII was not about stopping the Holocaust, that was just a bonus.



Well yes. The US is a civilized first world power and is held to a higher standard. Counties like Zimbabwe on the other hand are almost expected to be this way. It has nothing to do with them being black either. This sort of this has happened in Asia, the Middle East and South America too.



Or maybe they could try to.change their country for the better. Overthrow Mugabe and try to create a modern democratic state. I guarantee they'd get plenty of foreign support for that. After all; whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.



The point is to defend the people and territory of South Africa, same as any military. Zimbabwe is not their responsibility. None of this we are the world one human family stuff. SA's people pay for that military to protect their own, not to go looking for a cause that doesn't affect them. Militaries aren't charities.
So, all the 100s of thousands of Jewish refugees to America and other parts of the globe went unnoticed?

People like albert einstein, who should have been working for the German governemnt, were not.

All those Jewish actors and entertainers, artists and poets, literary figures...we all "failed to notice" that did we?

BULL.

We knew about camps like ORANIANBURG and DACHAU long befor Wannsee.

We knew about "The Nuremburg Laws" long befor Auschwitz/Birkenau.

There is a school of thought that even suggests that the strong isolationist lobby and much pro-German sentiment in the United States of the late 1930's was counterposed by even stronger Jewish business interests that lobbyed the United States out of isolationism and into Interventionism for europe. They just needed the proper "trigger", and Pearl Harbour, and the almost simultanious DOW of Adolf to the U.S. provided the perfect pretext for Churchill to begin the serious lobbying on behalf of the "Europe first" interest group.

Its about time that someone started to lobby South Africa, threatening sanctions if they continue to let other nations, NIEBOURING nations, carry on in this fashion, in flagrant disregard for international accords that they, South Africa, signed up to.

No, it doesn't make Zimbabwe their fault.

But inaction when you have knowledge of the events, is a CRIME. Ask any uniformed policeman. His uniform and his charter make it his DUTY to intervene when knowledge of a crime is a known element. Failure to intervene leave the policeman open for indictment himself.

Works exactly the same way on a macro-level. Failure to act when knowledge of the event is a given thing is as big a crime as the crime itself. Bigger even, because pesumably South Africa is the more higly educated, moralist country with the responsible black leadership....

I quote John Bird, as Idi amin, talking about attracting tourists to Uganda....

"Our hotel system has been revamped and improved....mainly, slinging out the Asian bastards what owned the place, and filling de premisis wid de Highly Trained Ugandan Staff, wot shapin' up top hole. "

Last edited by Drusus Nero; 01 Mar 16 at 18:50..
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Old 01 Mar 16, 21:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Don't get confused. Mugabe may use a leftist cloak but what he is about is enriching himself and his family - the 'party' members also. It was the same in Zambia under Kaunda when I was there and Zuma appears to be going the same way in SA
Well, nothing new about a dictator / "President for Life" looting the country for personal gain is there?
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Old 01 Mar 16, 22:11
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So, to sum up...

On the one hand, we tell Africans to "Stand Up, take command of your own destiny. Be part of the "Family of Nations....grow...prosper, help other countries do the same..."

On the other hand we also say to Africa at about the same point in time...
"We don't expect that you'll reach our standards. So a small matter of tribal genocide, or a self induced famine, is to be expected from people as un-civilized, un-educated, and simple minded as you people are. Let one black African dictator after another grab all the guns, take over the financial system, and claim to run the country by the will of the people. Thats OK, you can set up your own Dachau's if you want, (Ugandan people might recognise the term "State Research Beureau" as a handy substitute).

Yep, thats OK, Black Africa, because your'e just stupid tribal peole, anyway, and we don't expect you to understand or practice human rights like we do...

What a lot of rascist "double-think" "Newspeak".

No wonder Africa is the way it is.

And countries like SOUTH AFRICA are mostly to blame, and they in turn pass the buck to the colonial past masters.

Well, let me say that anyone with an African passport needs to have it revoked instantly. Issue TRIBAL passports instead, restrict travel for people obviously unwilling to co-operate in the family of Nations. Cut off the Aid, stop trading with people who promote such views...

And ban them from all sporting contests.

I mean, what we could do it for apartheid...we can also do for the present round of crims as well.
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Old 01 Mar 16, 22:18
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How about you Aussies step up and fix the problem. I can tell you that we Americans are sick of trying to fix a ungrateful world. Mobilize a army and go do it rather than telling others to fix it.

If its something your so passionate about do it. Don't castigate others if your not willing to do the lifting...
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