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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #31  
Old 29 Feb 16, 01:30
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Originally Posted by taco View Post
I did not believe it would be necessary to go into more detail but I was obviously wrong. The attitude of the British in 1765-1783 toward their colonies was not the same as what it would be toward Australia and New Zealand more than a century later. That should be obvious to everyone. In fact their attitude toward Canada was substantially different in the 1860s than what it had been to the rebelling colonies in the 18th century. Countries change their views on many issues and a perfect example is slavery. The British were not going to oppose the independence of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in the way they opposed the independence of the thirteen colonies. The development of those thirteen colonies and their distance from the center of the empire were key factors given the intolerance to independence that existed in the British government in the 18th century.
Thanks, that answers my question perfectly.

Distance - in itself - would not seem to have been a primary determining factor per se.
Neither was being "just a matter of time"; at least, not so much in terms of the amount of time required; rather, it was more a case of the "mood" of the time.
You have just told me, in effect, that the primary impetus came from the stance of the "mother country" towards the American colonists; and the consequent response of the colonists to the mother country.

Having said this, I would certainly agree that the stance of Britain towards Australia was quite different; and that this was at least partly a product of the difference in thinking that had developed between one century and the next.

Well done. +1
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  #32  
Old 29 Feb 16, 02:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
They're free to plot their own course. That's always an improvement.



You threw Ghandi in jail for not wanting you there. And ultimately you were forced to leave, and remain unmissed. So yes, oppressors.



I know a great deal about that. The Empire's view on non-whites sitting on useful land was very clear.

And now back to the specific topic as directed:



And all we had to do to was to kill British soldiers who fought and died for years to pull down a democratic government, oppress the colonists' freedom, and destroy the Constitution.

Those instincts you claim were pretty deeply buried, if they existed at all. Once again, British rule ended only after it was forced out at gunpoint.

I would say that it was the colonist's' example that was taken back to the UK and ultimately led, much later, to the rise of equality for the common man in the UK. It certainly helped pull down the monarchy in France, although their end game was rather botched.
Once again you accuse my-personally- of acting tyrannically in India and imprisoning The Mahatma. Can't you debate objectively ? After all ,I am not accusing you-personally- of conducting the My Lai Massacre.

The Constitution is steeped in English philosophical political thinking,particularly John Locke - I'm surprised that you are unaware of it.
Perhaps you thought it was all Thomas Jefferson ?

At Runnymede-that's in England- there's a monument built by the U.S. Government commemorating the signing nearby of Magna Carta by King John in 1215. Clearly at least some informed Americans appreciate the legacy they owe to British notions of Liberty and Justice.

A Lawman, are you ?
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  #33  
Old 29 Feb 16, 07:06
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American concepts of freedom etc did not occur in a vacuum utterly separate from Britain which is why a lot if people were very unhappy with the British governments handling of the situation.
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  #34  
Old 29 Feb 16, 10:52
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Once again you accuse my-personally- of acting tyrannically in India and imprisoning The Mahatma. Can't you debate objectively ? After all ,I am not accusing you-personally- of conducting the My Lai Massacre.
You're the one defending the White Man's Burden.

I do not mean you, personally. Obviously the men of the Empire were made of sterner stuff.

I mean 'you' it in the context of 'Your Nation'.

As to mai Lai, that was the act of a single man, whereas the exploitation of enslaved nations and the wholesale massacre of native populations was Imperial policy. Even at the height of the Indian Wars it was not policy to strap natives spread-eagled over the muzzles of cannon and execute them by discharging the piece. Let's also recall that the Empire invented concentration camps.

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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
The Constitution is steeped in English philosophical political thinking,particularly John Locke - I'm surprised that you are unaware of it.
Perhaps you thought it was all Thomas Jefferson ?
Actually, we took the ideas you failed to put into practice, and made them work. After all, you still had a monarch back then. And nobles. And invented concentration camps, where women and children starved to death in droves, just to subdue another colony for exploitation.

The Constitution had to be seeped in British blood in order to come into being. We haven't forgotten that, most of all.

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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
At Runnymede-that's in England- there's a monument built by the U.S. Government commemorating the signing nearby of Magna Carta by King John in 1215. Clearly at least some informed Americans appreciate the legacy they owe to British notions of Liberty and Justice.

A Lawman, are you ?
The reason the monument was built was to commemorate the beginning of the end for kings. Something you guys still haven't managed.
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  #35  
Old 29 Feb 16, 14:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
You're missing my entire point. Who's to say that definition of just is correct?
Nobody, but it is a convention. Not established by "powers", but by scholars and experts. A convention might be right or wrong, but regardless of that, a pattern of behavior might be found conforming to that convention, or not.

What I really find amazing is that by the tone of most of the posts here, it would seem not only that nobody but Mark V has more than a passing acquaintance with the principles of bellum iustum; but also that nobody seem to have read the article referenced to in the initial post.

If anybody reads the article, he will find that there are compelling arguments explaining how the revolution failed not one but several of the criteria (though complying with a few of the less important ones).
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  #36  
Old 29 Feb 16, 14:44
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Not so much that I didn't read or that I'm not familiar with it but more that I don't agree with its conclusions. One its applying a modern concept to an 18th century war and then trying to judge by that concept whether the war was just or not. My point was that it doesn't really matter if the author thinks it was just. What matters was that it was just to the people who fought in it and remained just because they won and the war facilitated some of the most important political and philosophical events in history. All war is commiting what would normally be considered unjust acts in order to achieve a greater good. I think the Revolution stands up to that criteria in a wider historical sense better than most wars.
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Old 29 Feb 16, 16:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
You're the one defending the White Man's Burden.

I do not mean you, personally. Obviously the men of the Empire were made of sterner stuff.

I mean 'you' it in the context of 'Your Nation'.

As to mai Lai, that was the act of a single man, whereas the exploitation of enslaved nations and the wholesale massacre of native populations was Imperial policy. Even at the height of the Indian Wars it was not policy to strap natives spread-eagled over the muzzles of cannon and execute them by discharging the piece. Let's also recall that the Empire invented concentration camps.



Actually, we took the ideas you failed to put into practice, and made them work. After all, you still had a monarch back then. And nobles. And invented concentration camps, where women and children starved to death in droves, just to subdue another colony for exploitation.

The Constitution had to be seeped in British blood in order to come into being. We haven't forgotten that, most of all.



The reason the monument was built was to commemorate the beginning of the end for kings. Something you guys still haven't managed.
I don't know about "defending the white man's burden" ,I was just trying to point-out that the "Age of Empire" was not all bad.It's a pity that your historical reading appears to have been all one sided.(I can quote other sources which tell a different story-if you're interested).

The matter of British Concentration camps would take us far off topic, but it will be noted that the camps - which were not deliberately constructed to starve people-were closed by the pressure of British public opinion.
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Old 29 Feb 16, 18:07
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Looking at the article it seems the only criteria for a Just War that the rebelious colonists met was that there was a realistic probability of success.

The colonists were hardly downtrodden. In fact I wonder if the British had been truly tyrants there would have been a rebellion at all? The colonists seem to have seem every attempt to meet their demands as weakness and a further spur to revolt.
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Old 01 Mar 16, 02:02
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
So the phrase, " Civilize 'em with a Krag" was current when the U.S. Army was fighting Muslim terrorists, was it ?
No, just Filipino's in general during the Philippine Insurrection. Oddly enough, at that point (1899-1902) the Muslims were on our side. It was only later they became an issue.

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Old 01 Mar 16, 02:07
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Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
Looking at the article it seems the only criteria for a Just War that the rebelious colonists met was that there was a realistic probability of success.

The colonists were hardly downtrodden. In fact I wonder if the British had been truly tyrants there would have been a rebellion at all? The colonists seem to have seem every attempt to meet their demands as weakness and a further spur to revolt.
From who's point of view are you defining "downtrodden?"

The reality was that the American Colonies had simply reached the point where they were ready to go it alone. Rather like a teenager reaching adulthood and telling mom and dad that if they want him to stay at home they have to give him more space else he is hitting the road.

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Old 01 Mar 16, 02:32
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Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
No, just Filipino's in general during the Philippine Insurrection. Oddly enough, at that point (1899-1902) the Muslims were on our side. It was only later they became an issue.

Tuebor
Indeed, the Filippinos involved-freedom fighters or terrorists, take your pick-were mostly Christians, and Roman Catholics at that.
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Old 01 Mar 16, 05:58
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Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
Not so much that I didn't read or that I'm not familiar with it but more that I don't agree with its conclusions. One its applying a modern concept to an 18th century war and then trying to judge by that concept whether the war was just or not.
It's not a modern concept. It's a theory that was born in Roman times, and among the main contributors there are St. Augustine, St. Thomas, Grotius and Locke.
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Old 01 Mar 16, 06:05
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From who's point of view are you defining "downtrodden?"
I don't know that poster's opinion on that, but an objective standard might be the comparison with the standing of English subjects in the home islands, given that the settlers claimed their rights were being violated - rights as English subjects, since they were nothing but that at the time.
A case could be made that English subjects at the time were less free than the colonists.
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Old 01 Mar 16, 06:33
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
I don't know that poster's opinion on that, but an objective standard might be the comparison with the standing of English subjects in the home islands, given that the settlers claimed their rights were being violated - rights as English subjects, since they were nothing but that at the time.
A case could be made that English subjects at the time were less free than the colonists.
Oh, in practical terms you are probably correct. In political terms not really. Remember that the colonies were largely self sufficient by the French and Indian War, and therefore much less in need of a mother country. The political disputes over taxation, the Quebec Act (which violated a number of Colonial Charters), government subsidies to the East India Company to the detriment of the Colonials, etc were simply that--disputes. The actual move to Independence was the direct result of the British over reaction to the Tea Party and the closing of the port and military occupation of Boston. It was only at that point the folk in the Colonies said, whoa there Nellie... and took steps that eventually led to Independence.

All that said, the American Colonies would have split sooner or later, but into many more independent nations. It was the exigencies of war that created the United States.

"Downtrodden?" A peasant tenant in Britain (or worse France etc) would probably disagree, but who ever gave them the sole right to define the term in the first place?

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Old 01 Mar 16, 14:27
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Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
Oh, in practical terms you are probably correct. In political terms not really. Remember that the colonies were largely self sufficient by the French and Indian War, and therefore much less in need of a mother country. The political disputes over taxation, the Quebec Act (which violated a number of Colonial Charters), government subsidies to the East India Company to the detriment of the Colonials, etc were simply that--disputes. The actual move to Independence was the direct result of the British over reaction to the Tea Party and the closing of the port and military occupation of Boston. It was only at that point the folk in the Colonies said, whoa there Nellie... and took steps that eventually led to Independence.

All that said, the American Colonies would have split sooner or later, but into many more independent nations. It was the exigencies of war that created the United States.

"Downtrodden?" A peasant tenant in Britain (or worse France etc) would probably disagree, but who ever gave them the sole right to define the term in the first place?

Tuebor
Things were happening before hand.

You also forget the Slaves in the US at the time. Things were worse for them. There was also various Indian tribes as well. (Some Christianised and some not) who also suffered badly. The story of the Patriots attack a Cheroke village and burning them in the school is particularly shocking.

Also the Patriots themselves were different people with different agendas. Sam Adams was not that happy with the end result after the war for instance.
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