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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #16  
Old 27 Feb 16, 11:27
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Originally Posted by Tsar View Post
Because it was guilty of what, being in the way of imperial ambition?



Right because how dare they resist being flooded with opium?



Again imperial ambition.
Your missing the point. They were not innocent victims but tough and brutal Empires in there own right. While the Boers were 2 Republics they were just religious racists who beaten the British in the first Boer War already
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Old 27 Feb 16, 12:40
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The only important issue is what the people at the time thought and obviously there were enough people in the thirteen colonies who believed it was a just war. The largest group of people at the time just wanted to be left alone and not take a side. The tories/loyalists were the smallest group in the colonies.

The problem for the British government was that it was only a matter of time for colonies 3000 miles from the center of the empire to become large enough that they would want to rule themselves. With the help of other countries that is essentially what happened.
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  #18  
Old 27 Feb 16, 17:41
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Check your history: India wasn't freed of the Imperial yoke until after being forced the lose thousands of men in WW2, and they're still trying to get their gems back.

The funny thing about the Brits is that you banned enslaving individuals, but thought nothing of enslaving cultures and nations.
(Me ? I didn't enslave anybody).

But then again the British weren't unique. Since we're checking history, where did the phrase "Civilize 'em with a Krag" come from ?
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  #19  
Old 28 Feb 16, 02:25
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
The US Army.

Which got its start opposing one of the most evil empires the world has ever seen.

Then, like now, they were fighting muslim terrorists.

And yet the PI was on the fast track to full independence well before WW2.

Whereas the British were still killing non-whites who wanted independence in 1960. Racism, slavery, and oppression: the British Empire personified.

So you're right, the British Empire wasn't unique: the USSR and Nazi Germany keep it company. And no man of integrity mourns any of the three.
Your full of it and not a man of integrity though
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  #20  
Old 28 Feb 16, 03:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
The US Army.

Which got its start opposing one of the most evil empires the world has ever seen.

Then, like now, they were fighting muslim terrorists.

And yet the PI was on the fast track to full independence well before WW2.

Whereas the British were still killing non-whites who wanted independence in 1960. Racism, slavery, and oppression: the British Empire personified.

So you're right, the British Empire wasn't unique: the USSR and Nazi Germany keep it company. And no man of integrity mourns any of the three.
So the phrase, " Civilize 'em with a Krag" was current when the U.S. Army was fighting Muslim terrorists, was it ?
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Old 28 Feb 16, 04:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taco View Post
" ... The problem for the British government was that it was only a matter of time for colonies 3000 miles from the center of the empire to become large enough that they would want to rule themselves. ... "
And what of the colonies that were about 12,000 miles away (i.e. Australia and New Zealand)? Would they also not, in a matter of time, want to rule themselves? Did they fight revolutionary wars to obtain self rule? Yet did they not - in common with Canada - obtain self rule without such a conflict?

Surely, there must be more significant factors at play than time and distance alone; especially given that we are now looking at roughly four times the distance, if not the same length of time?

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  #22  
Old 28 Feb 16, 07:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
And what of the colonies that were about 12,000 miles away (i.e. Australia and New Zealand)? Would they also not, in a matter of time, want to rule themselves? Did they fight revolutionary wars to obtain self rule? Yet did they not - in common with Canada - obtain self rule without such a conflict?

Surely, there must be more significant factors at play than time and distance alone; especially given that we are now looking at roughly four times the distance, if not the same length of time?

A couple of factors. One was land. The Americans were expanding west but the British had made a range of treaties with the Indians which was pro-habiting that. A lot of Land owners and speculators were not to keen on that.

Another was Slavery. Before the war the Scott case had a huge impact and during the conflict the British offended many a Southerner with the offer of freeing the Slaves in returning for fighting for the British.
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  #23  
Old 28 Feb 16, 12:26
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This comparison of Britains empire with Nazi Germany is a crock. So much of its heritage is intact . India no doubt was happy to be independent and who can blame them but so much if it still around in terms of institutions nevermind statues etc . Not so many statues of Adolf or Lenin still knocking about in Poland. Anyone can critique what went on in imperial lands as some of it was a disgrace but certain Americans can not critique it with any sense of smugness as after The British left, one of the most total examples of colonialism ever perpetrated then burst forth with some often brutal results. Human beings do some shitty things . "Free" men or not.

As to this thread it is clear that a number of English people sympathised with the colonies. I've always thought it the second English civil war.
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Old 28 Feb 16, 12:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
And what of the colonies that were about 12,000 miles away (i.e. Australia and New Zealand)? Would they also not, in a matter of time, want to rule themselves? Did they fight revolutionary wars to obtain self rule? Yet did they not - in common with Canada - obtain self rule without such a conflict?

Surely, there must be more significant factors at play than time and distance alone; especially given that we are now looking at roughly four times the distance, if not the same length of time?

I did not believe it would be necessary to go into more detail but I was obviously wrong. The attitude of the British in 1765-1783 toward their colonies was not the same as what it would be toward Australia and New Zealand more than a century later. That should be obvious to everyone. In fact their attitude toward Canada was substantially different in the 1860s than what it had been to the rebelling colonies in the 18th century. Countries change their views on many issues and a perfect example is slavery. The British were not going to oppose the independence of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in the way they opposed the independence of the thirteen colonies. The development of those thirteen colonies and their distance from the center of the empire were key factors given the intolerance to independence that existed in the British government in the 18th century.
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Old 28 Feb 16, 12:29
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Originally Posted by History fan View Post
A couple of factors. One was land. The Americans were expanding west but the British had made a range of treaties with the Indians which was pro-habiting that. A lot of Land owners and speculators were not to keen on that.

Another was Slavery. Before the war the Scott case had a huge impact and during the conflict the British offended many a Southerner with the offer of freeing the Slaves in returning for fighting for the British.
The British government did not make “a range of treaties with the Indians” at that time. You are confusing the Quebec Act of 1774 that extended the area of Quebec to the Ohio River. That did indeed anger some in the colonies but it occurred in 1774 when the move toward revolt was already well under way.

I don’t know of any Scott case that “had a huge impact.” I’m going to assume you are referring to the Somerst vs Stewart decision by Lord Mansfield in June 1772. That decision did cause some concern but again by that time the movement to rebellion was already well under way. Also, the military tactic of offering freedom to slaves for joining the British came after the rebellion had already begun.
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  #26  
Old 28 Feb 16, 15:24
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
So the phrase, " Civilize 'em with a Krag" was current when the U.S. Army was fighting Muslim terrorists, was it ?
Yup. Moro uprising. The same conflict that led to the development on the M1911.

Interestingly, the USA quickly established a semi-independent state in the PI from the onset of general peace (1902) with full independence the clear goal.

How long were the Brit overlords in India and Africa? Oh, yeah, until they were forced out. Same as happened in what became the USA.
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Old 28 Feb 16, 16:35
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Hi

Can we please keep to the subject at hand.

If you feel you cant then don't be surprised when your posts are removed and your time wasted.

Regards

Andy H
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Old 28 Feb 16, 16:38
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Yup. Moro uprising. The same conflict that led to the development on the M1911.

Interestingly, the USA quickly established a semi-independent state in the PI from the onset of general peace (1902) with full independence the clear goal.

How long were the Brit overlords in India and Africa? Oh, yeah, until they were forced out. Same as happened in what became the USA.
"Forced out" might be one way of looking at it, but the post war Labour government willing conceded independence-Churchill was against it. As for Africa , take a long,cold look at some of the ex-Colonies after the "Winds of Change" permitted the British to depart. Things improved,have they ?

There remains this. My parents knew several retired members of the old Indian Civil Service, who devoted their entire working lives to the welfare of the people under their care . Some oppressors!

But you wouldn't know anything about that.

Bringing the theme back to the USA .The British can,perhaps,take some pride in the fact that the Constitution and free thinking that inspired independence is based firmly on their own instincts regarding freedom and democratic government.
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Last edited by BELGRAVE; 28 Feb 16 at 16:44..
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Old 28 Feb 16, 17:12
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
"Forced out" might be one way of looking at it, but the post war Labour government willing conceded independence-Churchill was against it. As for Africa , take a long,cold look at some of the ex-Colonies after the "Winds of Change" permitted the British to depart. Things improved,have they ?
They're free to plot their own course. That's always an improvement.

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There remains this. My parents knew several retired members of the old Indian Civil Service, who devoted their entire working lives to the welfare of the people under their care . Some oppressors!
You threw Ghandi in jail for not wanting you there. And ultimately you were forced to leave, and remain unmissed. So yes, oppressors.

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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
But you wouldn't know anything about that.
I know a great deal about that. The Empire's view on non-whites sitting on useful land was very clear.

And now back to the specific topic as directed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Bringing the theme back to the USA .The British can,perhaps,take some pride in the fact that the Constitution and free thinking that inspired independence is based firmly on their own instincts regarding freedom and democratic government.
And all we had to do to was to kill British soldiers who fought and died for years to pull down a democratic government, oppress the colonists' freedom, and destroy the Constitution.

Those instincts you claim were pretty deeply buried, if they existed at all. Once again, British rule ended only after it was forced out at gunpoint.

I would say that it was the colonist's' example that was taken back to the UK and ultimately led, much later, to the rise of equality for the common man in the UK. It certainly helped pull down the monarchy in France, although their end game was rather botched.
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Old 28 Feb 16, 17:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taco View Post
I did not believe it would be necessary to go into more detail but I was obviously wrong. The attitude of the British in 1765-1783 toward their colonies was not the same as what it would be toward Australia and New Zealand more than a century later. That should be obvious to everyone. In fact their attitude toward Canada was substantially different in the 1860s than what it had been to the rebelling colonies in the 18th century. Countries change their views on many issues and a perfect example is slavery. The British were not going to oppose the independence of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in the way they opposed the independence of the thirteen colonies. The development of those thirteen colonies and their distance from the center of the empire were key factors given the intolerance to independence that existed in the British government in the 18th century.
To add to that the Canadian rebellion of 1837 did happen, it was put down but it did lead to "Responsible Government" (local self-government) in the separate colonies of Canada, Nova Scotia, and Brunswick in the 1840's. In the 1860's these colonies united in one Confederation and obtained further independent powers.
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