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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #1  
Old 20 Feb 16, 13:51
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Cool Who first suggested we declare our Independence from England?

This resulted in the Declaration of Independence which is considered one of the greatest literary works in the history of mankind and motivated countless other countries to declare and fight for their own Liberty and, one would think, that the person who first suggested this to America would be considered a Hero and would be a common household name.

So, if you can't answer that question then its time to go back to the history books...

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Old 20 Feb 16, 13:57
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Wasn't it Thomas Paine in 'Common Sense'?
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Old 20 Feb 16, 13:59
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He must've been an idiot, since England was absorbed into the UK in 1707.

Mind you, there are still plenty of idiots around, who think you won your independence from a country that didn't exist.

Paine, at least, suggested independence from Britain.
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Old 20 Feb 16, 14:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Wasn't it Thomas Paine in 'Common Sense'?
Nope.

I'll give you a hint - they started his court martial on July 4th on the first year anniversary of said declaration of independence...
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Old 20 Feb 16, 14:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
He must've been an idiot, since England was absorbed into the UK in 1707.

Mind you, there are still plenty of idiots around, who think you won your independence from a country that didn't exist.

Paine, at least, suggested independence from Britain.
Wow - he must be the idiot who still lables all the maps in the world with England for the UK.

And, genius, he probably used the terminology of separation from the Crown, not Britain cause, since you're an 'ace' you know, of course, that the Crown owned all the land - and some say they still do...
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Old 20 Feb 16, 15:08
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Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
Nope.

I'll give you a hint - they started his court martial on July 4th on the first year anniversary of said declaration of independence...
I think you are confused Common Sense was published long before the declaration of independence (which a distant discredited member of my family signed but not as flamboyantly as that show off Hancock).
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Old 20 Feb 16, 16:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
Wow - he must be the idiot who still lables all the maps in the world with England for the UK.

And, genius, he probably used the terminology of separation from the Crown, not Britain cause, since you're an 'ace' you know, of course, that the Crown owned all the land - and some say they still do...
They are idiots - England is one of four countries (each with a separate history and identity) that make up (deep breath) The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For a non-English speaker, this is tolerable (just) for an English native-speaker it's unacceptable.

"Britain, " "The United Kingdom," "The UK," and even "GB," are acceptable abbreviations, "England," is not.

A citizen of these isles is, "British," unless he tells you otherwise (we tend to default to our countries of origin) e.g. my passport describes me as a British Citizen, but I give my nationality as Scottish.

As to the Crown, Her Grace Elizabeth (or Her Majesty Elizabeth II) sits on the throne because she is the 19th great-granddaughter of Robert I, King of Scots (you may've heard of him).
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Old 20 Feb 16, 17:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
Nope.

I'll give you a hint - they started his court martial on July 4th on the first year anniversary of said declaration of independence...
I think the notion first appeared in print in Paine's Common Sense-ironic that it should have appeared in a book ostensibly written by an Englishman- although it has been claimed that it was ghost-written by Franklin and/or Adams. It was the first work ,I think, in which the authority of the British Crown in America was seriously questioned. Before its appearance I don't think the idea was seriously debated.

BTW there is noting more calculated to upset proud Scots -and to a far lesser extent Welsh -to use "England" as shorthand for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (Northern Ireland from 1922).
It's widely done although, technically, inaccurate.
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  #9  
Old 20 Feb 16, 17:29
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England is by far the dominant power on these islands. The island of 'Britain' itself and the neighbouring island of Eire.

With a population 12 times that of Scotland and 24 times that of Wales, it's obviously the major player on this little bit of land sticking up out of the north Atlantic. But it's cultural and linguistic influence on the entire planet is off the charts.

'England' this tiny country that doesn't even occupy the whole of the island on which it finds itseif, is an historical powerhouse with a linguisitc and political influence on the world, that is unsurpassed. Punching above its weight doesn't even come close to what this part-island nation has achieved, with the world's greatest superpower being an English speakng nation and son of Empire.

And I'm a Welsh speaking Welsh woman - a Celt to the core and one of the first 'nations' to be conquered and subjugated by the 'English' We are its oldest colony. But I'm not going to bang some historical drum about the evil colonialists, the conquering, rampaging empirical English, when the fact is, that anyone who had the capability was sailing off around the globe claiming lands left, right and centre. It was just that the English were better at it than anyone else.

No-one should ever underestimate what the 'English' people achieved. You can bitch about them, you can criticise them, but you can't deny history and their influence on the world.

This whole forum is conducted in English. This is the language in which we communicate and it originated here on this little island. So much originated here .. from your justice systems to the sports you play to the way you travel.

You can complain about the 'English' all you like. You can sneer and snipe and denigrate 'Empire' but you can't deny what this race of people achieved.

I'm Welsh and I am more proud of that than anything in my life apart from my kids. I am Welsh to my core - Cymru am Byth - hiraeth - and everything that I am from my birth to my dying day. But I'm not going to slag off the English or indeed the British - because that's what all of us are who live on this Island.
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Old 20 Feb 16, 17:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
They are idiots - England is one of four countries (each with a separate history and identity) that make up (deep breath) The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For a non-English speaker, this is tolerable (just) for an English native-speaker it's unacceptable.

"Britain, " "The United Kingdom," "The UK," and even "GB," are acceptable abbreviations, "England," is not.

A citizen of these isles is, "British," unless he tells you otherwise (we tend to default to our countries of origin) e.g. my passport describes me as a British Citizen, but I give my nationality as Scottish.

As to the Crown, Her Grace Elizabeth (or Her Majesty Elizabeth II) sits on the throne because she is the 19th great-granddaughter of Robert I, King of Scots (you may've heard of him).
During the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century it was fairly common to use England as synonymous for Britain and even denizens of Edinburgh (North Britons) did so. It was mainly through the efforts of Sir Walter Scott that this changed.
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Old 20 Feb 16, 17:54
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
During the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century it was fairly common to use England as synonymous for Britain and even denizens of Edinburgh (North Britons) did so. It was mainly through the efforts of Sir Walter Scott that this changed.
The thing is though Mark it hasn't actually changed.

I disagree with him on everything else he writes on here, but I do have some sympathy with Ace on this one.

The island of BRITAIN is populated by BRITONS.

Of all the BRITONS the last to arrive were the ENGLISH.

BRITON, BRITANNIA, BRITAIN etc. comes from BRYTHONIC which was the linguistic branch of the Celtic tribes that populated the two North Atlantic sister islands. BRYTHONIC celts and GOIDELIC celts.

BRYTHONIC - Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Cumbria

GOIDELIC - Irish, Scots, Manx.

...........................

As a Welsh speaking Welsh woman who has travelled the world, the ignorance that exists about Britain is astoundng. Britain is not England and vice versa. It is a matter of education .. but what I've come to realise is that no-one cares. It's not a big deal. Only history nerds like us even care.
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Old 20 Feb 16, 18:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuck's Luck View Post
The thing is though Mark it hasn't actually changed.

I disagree with him on everything else he writes on here, but I do have some sympathy with Ace on this one.

The island of BRITAIN is populated by BRITONS.

Of all the BRITONS the last to arrive were the ENGLISH.

BRITON, BRITANNIA, BRITAIN etc. comes from BRYTHONIC which was the linguistic branch of the Celtic tribes that populated the two North Atlantic sister islands. BRYTHONIC celts and GOIDELIC celts.

BRYTHONIC - Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Cumbria

GOIDELIC - Irish, Scots, Manx.

...........................

As a Welsh speaking Welsh woman who has travelled the world, the ignorance that exists about Britain is astoundng. Britain is not England and vice versa. It is a matter of education .. but what I've come to realise is that no-one cares. It's not a big deal. Only history nerds like us even care.
May be true but for a late 18th century person, given their education, it wasn't "idiotic" to refer to England - it was normal practice. Indeed this continued in some countries for much longer thus "Gotte straffe England" in 1914 was not intended to exempt Scots, Welsh, Irish, Cornish, Manx or even Channel Islanders from smiting by the Almighty
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Old 21 Feb 16, 05:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
Nope.

I'll give you a hint - they started his court martial on July 4th on the first year anniversary of said declaration of independence...
Given that Paine was never in military service he was never court martialed get your facts right. He was tried in absentia in December 1792 in the Court of King's Bench for libel

Paine wasn't so much a pro independence supporter as an anti monarchist and saw the American experience as but one step in the process of ridding the world of monarchies
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Old 21 Feb 16, 08:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuck's Luck View Post
The thing is though Mark it hasn't actually changed.

I disagree with him on everything else he writes on here, but I do have some sympathy with Ace on this one.

The island of BRITAIN is populated by BRITONS.

Of all the BRITONS the last to arrive were the ENGLISH.

BRITON, BRITANNIA, BRITAIN etc. comes from BRYTHONIC which was the linguistic branch of the Celtic tribes that populated the two North Atlantic sister islands. BRYTHONIC celts and GOIDELIC celts.

BRYTHONIC - Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Cumbria

GOIDELIC - Irish, Scots, Manx.

...........................

As a Welsh speaking Welsh woman who has travelled the world, the ignorance that exists about Britain is astoundng. Britain is not England and vice versa. It is a matter of education .. but what I've come to realise is that no-one cares. It's not a big deal. Only history nerds like us even care.

speaking of the need for education. You left out the Angle-Saxon. Just an oversight on your part I'm sure.





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Old 21 Feb 16, 08:16
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The English – descended from the Engle Jutes Friesians and Saxons - gave their name to England. An ancient peoples related back 6000 years to many of the Welsh and Picts who arrived a while before them. A Scythian Germanic Race who have travelled a tortuous route over the millennia to give their name to England. They have created a truly global phenomena. There is no one in the world who has claim to England but them. Those before them are either gone or absorbed. Homogenous, resourceful, successful, the ethnic English have as much right to give their name to England as the Franks to France, the Allemandes to Germany, The Dutch to Holland, or the Austro-Goths to Austria.

Any who claim to be ‘Celtic’ or not English within borders of England who have ancestry in England are deluded. Regional separatists for example. They are English as anyone – if they claim not to be so, then it is because they do not know their true history or ethnicity. Even the Normans (Norsemen,) who invaded in 1066 AD are a Germanic Scythian people by origin. They like the Vikings before them were of one origin. And were absorbed.

England and the ethnic English nation are one inseparable being.

M.A. Hall
English History Teller

http://www.englandandenglishhistory....ethnic-english
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